Do Blacks dispute that Mexicans originated LA gang culture??

[mayugastank]

it all goes back to the prison politics of California and the way whites and chicanos hung together against blacks in the days when blacks outnumbered them-the 60-70s were real vicious. Alliances between the AB and EME were nationwide -Tommy SIlverstein an AB member who is one of the most famous federal inamtes murdered 2 blacks as favors for the EME. Like I said Dago and you disagreed that alot of white culture -the tattoos -the dress,look of whites nationwide was copied from California whites who copied ELA chicanos. 49 states and 90% of the white populace reside outside California-yet only here did whites begin 1% clubs resembling chicano gangs? or begin to adopt the tattoo patterns and stilo of ELAs chicano people? like I said previously its unimaginable-check out Texas and Arizona-our patterns and tattoing and look are similiar in all states. But whites are only similiar to us in close proximity to us! blacks and whites originals homestead were the NEW ENGLAND STATES and Southern States -yet in direct contact with us (whom hold the homesteads of the Southwest) did their gangs and patterns and style of dress begin to resemble ours. No outlaw Bikers in Missippi? until way later in the game-no similiar black dress for gang members in the south? no verifiable black gang in the south although their history there as opposed to California is hundreds of years older? IMITATION is the highest form of flattery and although whites and blacks may have added spice to our sauce it doesnt take away from it being ours.

[youngspade]

THere still gay for working with the whitemen, mexicans had a choice and they choose to work with the CRACKERS of society! Dont make it seem like they didnt have a choice! Plus them niggaz is bitchs if its even! But once mexicans outnumber they get extra HARD! GTFO all that East LA BS, you aint never been down SOUTH (I was locked up in Oreleans Parish aka The N.O) I been all through the MIDWEST and none of yall "EAST LA" BS never even got notorized by them!

[mayugastank]

Down south ...those historic black gangs and historic black dress? get tatted like a vato cuz snoop and the rest are on our nutsack-you fake fronting fools! get your own dont be fronting on us. Biters with your new booty gangs -coming up in the 70s ,thinking you got history. All these murders and not one real organized crime black group? WTF are you fools ? nation this and nation that..in chitown just like the puerto ricans who started all that goofy shit-when they dropped out so did you fools cuz you just wait to see what everyone else is doing so you can copy it. fucking parasite. now all of a sudden you fools are getting tatted and you dont even know what to get on you so you open up a book and point to a picture some vato drew. red and blue and fronting on some norteno and sureno gangbanging ways....but oh yea though papi you guys wore them first since ESEs gangs only got 60 years on your bitch ass studio gangster hoods. Get the phug outta here with talk of the south-you dumb fuck getting lynched up until the 70s and pumping up that shit like you run it! you should be put out your misery. get the phug off our nutsack and if you intend to dress like us take some fucking pointers on how to do it, dont try going out on your own cuz you fuck it all up

[perongregory]

[MMRbkaRudog]

Fuck this threas is a joke, just like that new booty stank bitch netbanger.

[EmptyLot]

?

At first I thought J was addressing me, that's why I put up a post explaining why my tone changed on Mayuga. Then another side of my brain said that he may be addressing Mayuga, therefore I put up a post acknowledging what he said.

Either way, you guys can have at that. I'm going on vacation (literally), and will be back within the coming weeks. Peace.

shehboingboing!

[buLLetxx2]

I'm now more interested in the seemingly obvious Irish influence on Hispanic gangs swept under the rug for the most part. Most LA/Gang historians date Dog Town back to the 1890s, and show it was predominantly Irish. Also the gang in which White Fence spawned from was, also, predominantly Irish though I cannot recall the name atm.

I understand this does not get discussed because, well, there aren't too many Irish running around trying to claim they started LA Gang Banging but I do see the Hispanics and Blacks both trying to claim fame for this, whether they started it or not it seems clear to me that the Irish had just as big, if not a bigger hand in this than both cultures.

Why's everyone gotta steal the white man's thunder?

I kid, of course, and realize that for a time the Irish were the Mexicans of their time, in regards to the way Americans dealt with their arrival, where they were met with utter disdain and violence by people who felt they had more right to be here than them.

Perhaps this was the tie that bound the Irish and Hispanics in the Dog Town era, much in the way Filipino and Hispanics were able to find common ground and coexist on many levels in the Los back in the day.

just tossing things out there.

[perongregory]

Don't throw blacks in there that's the Chicanos/Mexicans trying to downplay everyone. I said it before and I'll say it again, the ethnic whites started it, The Mexicans defined it, and the blacks revolutionized it.

[mayugastank]

Good post-insightful.

Heres the problem with the Irish started Dogtown. As from what I know about it the guy who started that click-was essentially a whitexican.Just like Joe Peg Leg Morgan was a white man who had adopted the slang/dress/demeanor of chicanos in his area.He was from Maravilla. A gang that never held a throwback to the irish. So what I read of this guy and his foundings states that along with mexican barrio kids-he and others started the gang. Meanwhile-their enemies incuded 100% chicano gangs like EASTLAKE-HARPYS( who got their start around the ELA area) 38th street/a gang well establiched by the 1920s( basically saying their start date is probably years before that)--43rd street/LINCOLN HEIGHTS/ORPHANS/ROCKWOOD STREET GAHERTY LOMAS/HAZARD/ people like to comment and give these gangs a date at about 1930-1940. But I know that orphans/gaherty/and lincoln say they started at the turn of the century. The gang DOGTOWN/ was one gang that was started by an irish/ONE GANG. There are literally a dozen gangs in ELA who started at the 1920s or before. ALL are still active. The irish guy who started DOGTOWN was essentially mexican. White fence gets alot of recognition as they are probably the oldest largest gang. But other smaller clicks like EL JARDIN have some 30 years on white fence. The dates given to the gangs are all approximate///yet even taking these approx. .These gangs are the oldest living gangs on the continent. There isnt anywhere on this continent that gangs dress/act/graff/tattoo in the fashion they do here. Like I have said over and over-its a purely chicano invention. Chicanos took themes from others to create a whole unique look copied by every gang of every race. I dont give credits to blacks because they are their own inventions on the East /but out here all they did was get payed for dressing/tattooing and riding like mexicans. Whats does it say that under 300k blacks would influence all black america (36 MILLION). To me personally it says that the style they got from chicanos was and is such a hit that its become an icon. doesnt it seem strange that 3 million blacks with tons more history couldnt create what LA blacks have exported from coast to coast? or that somehow by some mysterious accident both our LARGEST gangs would SOMEHOW -come up with teh same colors? its unfathomable! I dont believe in coincidences. But whatever Ive beat a dead horse and either way I put my input in and left others to make their conclusions'

[perongregory]

From your logic on blacks Mayuga saying that NY blacks gave LA blacks their culture and Mexicans supplied the rest due to the more blacks being on the EC, it seems Irish supplied Mexicans with the idea of st. Gangs through that Irish who started the 1st Mexican gang in LA (Dogtown). I mean the Irish on the east coast outnumber and have had gangs way before Dogtown -and how come mexican gangs came after the Irish ones, in fact how come it seems like a so-called Whitexican creates precedents in Mexican st culture...1st the Irish starting the first gang mexicans were in, then Peg Legs slavic ass starting your beloved EME. Damn could it be the whiteboys being the brain power?

[mayugastank]

From your logic on blacks Mayuga saying that NY blacks gave LA blacks their culture and Mexicans supplied the rest due to the more blacks being on the EC, it seems Irish supplied Mexicans with the idea of st. Gangs through that Irish who started the 1st Mexican gang in LA (Dogtown). I mean the Irish on the east coast outnumber and have had gangs way before Dogtown -and how come mexican gangs came after the Irish ones, in fact how come it seems like a so-called Whitexican creates precedents in Mexican st culture...1st the Irish starting the first gang mexicans were in, then Peg Legs slavic ass starting your beloved EME. Damn could it be the whiteboys being the brain power?

PEGLEG came decades after LA EME. He joined in 1970. They started in 1958. He getts recognition by the white press because he is a white from a criminal hispanic organization. Yet despite this I bet if you ever called him white he wouldve killed your ass. He was chicano thru and thru. Now the problem with your thinking is that you are insinuating all chicanos are the little dark ass chunt berrys who kick at the swapmeet. I have dated chicanas that had blue eyes/blonde hair. My best friends growing up were 3 mexican brothers who had RED ASS HAIR/blue eyes and skin like milk. We are a multicultured race to begin with. Chicano is a culture apart from mexico. Its distinct totally from mexican culture. Its old enough to be defined on its own. DOGTOWN is supposedly the oldest gang in LA -yet he Irish kid was always known to keep the company of mexicans( verbatim) ORPHANS -CLARENCE STREET -FICKET ST-EL JARDIN-38th all take issue with DOGTOWN being given that title of oldest gang. They all claim to be LAs oldest. ORPHANS said they started DOGTOWN. These are mexican gangs from day one. You and others use DOGTOWN to TRY to paint mexicans as come latelys...well its your asses who came lately/Late to the tattoo style,late to the car show/late to the street fashion /Perongregory bloods and crips had an impact in the 1980s-1990s....about 20 years of a history of 100 + years. Will they be remebered in another 20? will they be around? its looking like not!!.......Will ELA gangs? SURE as hell if histoyr is the answer to the question. Stop using DOGTOWN.....they are one gang! We have got White Fence-Maravilla.Clarence/Orphans/Drifters/Jardin/ and a grip more even in San Diego! Old Town...thats a gang some say started in 19o0'z and they were never mixed ...hit any direction WEST EAST SOUTH and Go to BERNADINO and EVERY "OLDEST GANG" is chicano and EVERYONE starts at 1940 or earlier! fucks the gangs! its the styles these gangs brought to the youth of the country-and across teh shores. WE OWN you copy!!

[perongregory]

From your logic on blacks Mayuga saying that NY blacks gave LA blacks their culture and Mexicans supplied the rest due to the more blacks being on the EC, it seems Irish supplied Mexicans with the idea of st. Gangs through that Irish who started the 1st Mexican gang in LA (Dogtown). I mean the Irish on the east coast outnumber and have had gangs way before Dogtown -and how come mexican gangs came after the Irish ones, in fact how come it seems like a so-called Whitexican creates precedents in Mexican st culture...1st the Irish starting the first gang mexicans were in, then Peg Legs slavic ass starting your beloved EME. Damn could it be the whiteboys being the brain power?

PEGLEG came decades after LA EME. He joined in 1970. They started in 1958. He getts recognition by the white press because he is a white from a criminal hispanic organization. Yet despite this I bet if you ever called him white he wouldve killed your ass. He was chicano thru and thru. Now the problem with your thinking is that you are insinuating all chicanos are the little dark ass chunt berrys who kick at the swapmeet. I have dated chicanas that had blue eyes/blonde hair. My best friends growing up were 3 mexican brothers who had RED ASS HAIR/blue eyes and skin like milk. We are a multicultured race to begin with. Chicano is a culture apart from mexico. Its distinct totally from mexican culture. Its old enough to be defined on its own. DOGTOWN is supposedly the oldest gang in LA -yet he Irish kid was always known to keep the company of mexicans( verbatim) ORPHANS -CLARENCE STREET -FICKET ST-EL JARDIN-38th all take issue with DOGTOWN being given that title of oldest gang. They all claim to be LAs oldest. ORPHANS said they started DOGTOWN. These are mexican gangs from day one. You and others use DOGTOWN to TRY to paint mexicans as come latelys...well its your asses who came lately/Late to the tattoo style,late to the car show/late to the street fashion /Perongregory bloods and crips had an impact in the 1980s-1990s....about 20 years of a history of 100 + years. Will they be remebered in another 20? will they be around? its looking like not!!.......Will ELA gangs? SURE as hell if histoyr is the answer to the question. Stop using DOGTOWN.....they are one gang! We have got White Fence-Maravilla.Clarence/Orphans/Drifters/Jardin/ and a grip more even in San Diego! Old Town...thats a gang some say started in 19o0'z and they were never mixed ...hit any direction WEST EAST SOUTH and Go to BERNADINO and EVERY "OLDEST GANG" is chicano and EVERYONE starts at 1940 or earlier! fucks the gangs! its the styles these gangs brought to the youth of the country-and across teh shores. WE OWN you copy!!

No, the problem with you is you are bringing up BS, i don't give a fuck if Mexicans look like Zues thunder god or Tonto the Indian, some fuckin whiteboys set that shit off that's the facts, Irish and some Eastern European fool, which you fools jock nuts. You said, "ORPHANS -CLARENCE STREET -FICKET ST-EL JARDIN-38th all take issue with DOGTOWN being given that title of oldest gang."Who wouldn't take issue, they're gangs... that's what your ass is doing now trying to claim some shit over blacks, when in reality the Irish set all this shit off but you duck and evade. They set it off on the east and west coast the Chicanos came later, claiming all like itseems your trying to pull with blacks. Lol WE OWN YOU COPY" that's why they wanna be bloods and crips all over the world, and say nIgga, and bounce their lolos not put bricks in them and cruise like the chicanos, thats why they wanna crip walk, and get active, and say blood and cuzz, listen to rap, or zapp, or oldies, take the blacks zoot suits, take the whites st gangs, do graffitii like us, ride on big rims and smash trucks, get blued up like the crips, flamed up like the bloods...Boy you better stop that shit, blacks the true innovators...Ya better sit back ,bite, and obsesses for 100 yrs on some shit ya didn't even create while we continue to drop styles on you when your young get tired of that old shit. BLACKS... we push change.

[mayugastank]

Perongregory....lol!....your too much just stop.Please you dam near busted me open thru the laughing.I just cant take you serious

[perongregory]

I know thats the same way I feel and have felt everytime I read one of your post, at least the chicano pattern stays the same with internet reactions, black does Chicano follows.

[buLLetxx2]

I ain't trying to delve into you twos debate but, in regards to there just being "one gang started by Irish", the gang from which Rockwood and White Fence spawned from was also predominantly Irish, and with the logic being used in this thread, that would also lead one to believe that Rockwood and White Fence originated from the Irish.

And, in regards to the "look in every direction, chicano gangs are the oldest", well of course, because blacks weren't really coming to CA en masse until during/post great depression, whereas whites, and to a lesser extent, hispanics and asians (chinese) were already there, hispanics (and whites) living in camps and later permanent community/neighborhoods set up for those doing the picking in the fields, facing bla bla bla from the more upper class whites outside the hood and gangs formed. Irish or not it was the same intent in the beginning and it had nothing to do with Chicano culture, and everything to do with a class war, struggle for economic gain, and those historically stereotypical whites thinking they hold more claim to the land and subsequent jobs therein than any other race.

Also, speaking of history in CA and the Chicano culture, what about the Norteno's? And by norteno's I don't mean the x4 in general but the Chicanos from central valley on up, don't they, generally speaking, have a deeper seeder culture as Latin-American/Chicanos, generationally speaking, than Hispanics in the south, considering in the days of mass (migrant) agricultural work in the USA, CA specifically, most migrated to Salinas on up, while the "newer" hispanic immigrants wound up in LA and it's surroundings? So, if this is true, than they're just as Chicano as anyone yet they've evolved, culturally, much differently than their Southern California counterparts, even adapting many things from African American culture, due to their more "friendly" relationship with blacks up there. So does this make them any less chicano or, since you've stated that Chicano culture adapted and adopted, just as Chicano as the southern heads and that the Southern Chicanos are just stuck in the past, refusing to adapt and adopt to some extent, as most cultures world wide have done, while still retaining their roots, so to speak.

I mean, personally speaking, just because I listen to rap(and some rock), explored ideology from religions other than Buddhism, and belonged to a gang, doesn't make me any less Khmer, it just makes me an American, a Khmer living/growing up in America.

And, in the end, it's my opinion that at the very end of the day no matter who's race you think started what, it's all a by-product of America, and American culture, period, end of story. If Chinese stayed in Chinatown, and the Hispanics all lived on Olivera Street, and Armenians never left little Armenia then maybe I'd buy this ethnospecific cultural advancement BS but it's not that way. We're all American now, clinging to whatever we have left of what we think we can call our culture. Viets and Khmers came to the Americas because of America's involvement in the Vietnam war, directly or indirectly, and landed in an area surrounded by diverse ethnicities and their regionally specific cultures, and by regional i mean city demographic, etc not specific race. And hence the evolution of Asian Americans, and just about ANY ethnic transplant into just about any city in the US, you got school boys and girls who do well in life of every race, and gangsters and thugs of every race, all who attempt to cling to their own ethnospecific culture whilst adapting AMERICAN life whether they like it or not.

Just because there were more of one race or another doing something at one point in time does give enough factual basis to trace lineage, the very idea that an Irishman may or may not have started the oldest Hispanic gang in Los Angeles supports this. I mean, with that Logic, there were more blacks gangbanging throughout the 70s and 80s and thus, in the eyes of mainstream america, defined gang banging for a nation regardless of the historical influence of ANY other ethnospecific culture on them, because it's not the ethnicity that matters, but more so the regional culture, which is why LA in general is known as the Gang capitol, not the black, white, asian or hispanic gang capitol.

im drifting and ranting now so ill stop.

[perongregory]

Beautiful, you have patience and still maintain your civillity when Mayuga slanders your people, me, not so much. But you've hit it on the head, and until Mayuga gives it up to those Irish, Blacks and others who influenced Chicano st. Life he can't say anything about any other group.

[mayugastank]

Good points. But I have to disagree/ Up until 1950 .....95% of all blacks in America were either born in the South or lived in the south. A total of 5% of the total black populace -were born in some city outside the south//mainly Detriot/NYC/CHi/....In every one of those citys blacks imitate the forms of gangs of the larger ethinc group ( puerto ricans in chitown,italians in NYC) I am not disrespecting that its a natural reaction. But gangs in the south were pretty much unstructured and largely non existant. 400 years of history in these states and yet not a single iconic representation of what the crips and bloods are or look like in LA. Imagine 3 million blacks living in NYC against 300k blacks in Socal. The percentage dont add up -yet despite this Tampa Florida ( more blacks then LA) nor Brooklyn hold a gang structure that transpired borders like the crips and bloods WHOM took the ideas of dress,demeanor and tattooing from their chicano counterparts. These gangs based largely on chicano themes of street styles-art-signals-graffiti-and takeover mentalitys of neighborhoods are the most popular gangs for blacks in large historic black citys like Atl-Miami-Detroit-NYC-Jersey. Why? In my opinion because the gang structure of these bloods and crips are not regular to black america. The whole EAST COAST versus WEST COAST issue is really about 2 very different sets of blacks/The hip hoppy/boot wearing/kangoo hats and addidas sweatpants wearing against the cornrolled/tattooed/dickies and ben davis wearing western black. The west coast blacks ARE that different simply by virtue of having appropriated everything in their styles from mexicans. In actuality the EAST COAST/WEST COAST rivalry is simply chicano gangster style street themes versus black style new york east coast hip hop.The two styles are fighting for popularity amongst every youth group worldwide( Note: I said worldwide) . Whites have now almost completely adopted a retro cholo look. The bicked heads and tattoos with plays on chicano gang themes. Lets ask this were the styles of whites nationwide/even remotely similiar to what they are here-under 15 years ago? NOT EVEN. Did their ever exist a white gang who sported all the identifiers of the cholo? The clothes/graff/tatts/gang signals/writing styles/slang?....Not as far as I know. The italians a group that wasnt considered white till after the 1950s -had a traditional gang structure-it was hundreds of years old. They infused it with the well dressed and pressed way actors portrayed gangsters, and discounted the actual italian peasant/mustached dark immigrant that was teh original italian mafia.But really no other ethnic white group had anything similiar to what the chicanos are out here. Their are gangs in little ass national city that are said to be 100+ years old. It takes quite a bit of enthusiasm to make soemthing last a century. I mean their arent Irish gangsters/nor polish ones left. Only the italians with a centurys old structure are whats left of white gangsterism. Chicanos are the oldest gangs in Ameirca -and possible worldwide.

[mayugastank]

Perongregory/this discussion is best had without adding every ethnic group in the world to it. Cambodians/USOs and other minorities have adopted 100% the styles of either chicanos or blacks. Or they go completely whitewashed. I know your trying to make friends but KEEP FOCUS man/

[perongregory]

Really I'm not worried about them, I'm just here to tell you to focus on your people and keep mines out your mouth.

[buLLetxx2]

Perongregory/this discussion is best had without adding every ethnic group in the world to it. Cambodians/USOs and other minorities have adopted 100% the styles of either chicanos or blacks. Or they go completely whitewashed. I know your trying to make friends but KEEP FOCUS man/

You just indirectly refuted your entire point right there.


Every immigrant adopts and adapts the style of americans, regardless of ethnicity, shortly after their arrival here.
period, end of story.

You chicanos adopted and adapted the gangs of the irish, twisted it and made it your own, blacks did the same with their twist, asians and islanders did the same, and so on and so forth.

Peron keeps coming back to the Irish point, not because I keep slipping it in there, but because it's been proven that Irish have had gangs in the US since the Mid 19th century on the East coast, before many migrated west. I do not think it's a coincidence that with the migration and arrival of Irish in the West, so came gangs. And regardless, of who formed what first all the original intent during the inception of the gang was brought on buy AMERICAN CULTURE and thusly remains very much American, regardless of the color of the first gang banger.

Until you're able to openly admit that, while Chicano as a culture in general may have been borrowed from(just as they borrowed from others), the LA gang culture is in and of itself nothing more than a melding and clash of cultures in the Los Angeles region bringing together a certain people, class or minority for common goal then we'll all just keep talking in circles here man.

I've admitted the tattoo style point, and a few others you've made, but you're logic is riddled with holes my friend, the very fact that you claim because someone is seen to have been doing it "first" allows their culture to claim influence on any and all who also do this afterward, then I ask you why Hispanic's wanted to come to the US to pick fruits and veggies like the Blacks who'd been doing that in this country since it's inception?
But then we'd just be wasting our time, not will to admit the faults in each others arguments now wouldn't we?

[mayugastank]

Heres the thing man-you take generalities like who invented the car or who made noodles first or who made the internet to throw out cultural nuances.Culture is defined as LANGUAGE/BORDERS/CUSTOMS.....nothing else. Is their a khmer culture? SURELY. Is it a mix of a culture with their asian neighbors? Of course! Are their certain behaviours-foods-religious practices-art.....that are distinctly cambodian? Without knowing too much -Id wager YES. That same argument is what I am making for chicanos. Cambodians werent the first to practice buddhism-yet it is a part of the culture. But I bet other things are distinctly cambodian about the religion. I mean take catholism in Mexico--La Virgen Maria.....her look and story. This is completely a throwback to ancient mexico. Yet the religion is european. Would anyone argue that the stpry of LA VIRGEN isnt mexican? doubt it. Would anyone argue that since Mexicans first used chocolate ---that the french coffee cake isnt french? its too much of an argument man! In that case just appropriate all mexico and most native american culture since history tells us they are actually mongolians/from asia.

[mayugastank]

How so does the art of mexico differ so much from the art of chicanos?-How so do the artistrys mix? You have 2 totally distinct and totally different forms of artistry between the mexican and mexican american people. Saying that the art of the streets is almost completely chicano in the USA and now worldwide.Is just lunacy. The styles of street art made popular by chicanos ahev transformed the styles of all the worlds art. Thats an extremely important accomplishment. The music of african americans has done more so to change the worlds culture. yet its sung in english/not african. So we wouldnt take that away from them would we? EVERYONE uses our art now/ I just dont know guy. I personally believe you cant get any more intimate then tattooing cultural nuances of another culture on you. I mean we even have different forms of writing that we made popular. Yet everyones getting in on it now. Throw a little color in there and call it white/ slant the eyes a little call it asian/ put a cuple dolla sympbols on a back piece and call it black. I love me some pho....its a great dish. Would I eat it and then say forget that asians cant cook?.....I mean all I am seeking is a little acknowledgement since theres been a ton of thieving on my peoples art. Yet teh argument is made while taking it that it belongs to everyone. What a bunch of lies.

[Sentenza]

Heres the thing man-you take generalities like who invented the car or who made noodles first or who made the internet to throw out cultural nuances.Culture is defined as LANGUAGE/BORDERS/CUSTOMS.....nothing else. Is their a khmer culture? SURELY. Is it a mix of a culture with their asian neighbors? Of course! Are their certain behaviours-foods-religious practices-art.....that are distinctly cambodian? Without knowing too much -Id wager YES. That same argument is what I am making for chicanos. Cambodians werent the first to practice buddhism-yet it is a part of the culture. But I bet other things are distinctly cambodian about the religion. I mean take catholism in Mexico--La Virgen Maria.....her look and story. This is completely a throwback to ancient mexico. Yet the religion is european.

Its true, of course all cultures have their individual stuff going on, no one ever doubted that, but thats the way it developes. People take whats already there, borrow from other people and develop it to another level.
How do you think the invention of the fucking wheel in ancient Babylonia made it to become a Mercedes SL? Cause people took the invention and ran with it. And its also the same with styles, arts, music etc.
How do you think cuneiform script made it to become chinese, indian, arabic or latin letters? Cause people took it and developed it. They saw it told themselves: "Oh this is nice" and put their own edge to it. That is basically how it works since 1000ds of years. To make it clear what i mean, YOU owe the style of Chicano tattoos basically to the fucking hairy cavemen who did their hitups on the walls 50,000 years ago.
Thats why i dont understand this all this sensationalism about who copied what from who...

[jdm894g]

Its true, of course all cultures have their individual stuff going on, no one ever doubted that, but thats the way it developes. People take whats already there, borrow from other people and develop it to another level.
How do you think the invention of the #%@&#%@ wheel in ancient Babylonia made it to become a Mercedes SL? Cause people took the invention and ran with it. And its also the same with styles, arts, music etc.
How do you think cuneiform script made it to become chinese, indian, arabic or latin letters? Cause people took it and developed it. They saw it told themselves: "Oh this is nice" and put their own edge to it. That is basically how it works since 1000ds of years. To make it clear what i mean, YOU owe the style of Chicano tattoos basically to the #%@&#%@ hairy cavemen who did their hitups on the walls 50,000 years ago.
Thats why i dont understand this all this sensationalism about who copied what from who...

This just about sums up this whacky thread. The title alone is stupid. who cares because gang culture in these days are not counterproductive to the communities they are in.

[richardprz1]

I live in Inglewood I grew up with Inglewood 13 because brother was Inglewood 13 he don't Bang anymore he was banging in 80s and 90s.There was a black mexican gang call Poserz13 they were /mostly blacks in 80s and early 90s now they are mostly mexicans. My brother got shot three times on the chest but his homeboy got kill they thought it was Lennox 13 but my borther went to a bar in Westchester few years later and seen the guy that shot him and kill his homeboy is fat short Mexican from Poserz 13 got off his white ford hit them up and started to shot but didn't say any hood.

[allsydes]

The Poserz originally used to kick it on the Santa Monica pier in the mid 80's. They were all black dudes, Creeper R.I.P., One Punch, Cartoon, Crow, Boxer.... these dudes used to try and hang around punk rock shows in the 80's as well. They eventually moved to LAX/Inglewood area.

[mayugastank]

The title says do blacks dispute Mexicans originated gang culture? ......................well I dont know how they can. Blacks REALLY brought rap and thats it to the street life of ELA. The whips/lowriders/graffiti style/dress/stacking/colors/tattoo style/gestures/mannerisms and EVERYTHING that is considered gang culture is really SOUTHWESTERN MEXICAN AMERICAN CULTURE..........it is prevelant in all the states were Chicanos reside and its a style that blacks have used themselves --in their rap videos/and west coast culture. Now should we say hey you cant wear that? NO but should they at the minium acknowledge that we started it .........that the whole of underground hip hop culture is almost entirely bootlegged off us now? I mean lil Wayne and everyone sidesteps teh question by labeling the look Los Angelos.........BS. That black and grey tattoo style found on Ed HArdy/Famous/Element/Cypress Park/Linking Park/ Kat Von D/Lil Wayne/Tyga/Tupac/ and on and on and on didnt just originate amongst everyone NATIONWIDE...........it is a style that was practiced amongst chicanos in the states of Texas and Arizona/Califas/Nevada/Colorado/ and of which they actually introduced to Los Angelos via our chicano brethren from these states........its as much as part of Chicano culture as the designs of the Yukuza are a part of the Japanese peoples art and have become synonomous with the land/culture/people. Blacks act as if they had any hand in any of it when they sport it all...........and that is cultural thievery. Our style of tattooing is worldwide and recognize that NO OTHER RACE OR NATION OF PEOPLE had ever perfected or used the patterns outside of us. Not anywhere on earth was it done................but blacks have become so arrogant that getting all our styles and patterns on them -then flash your shirt to show it like we didnt invent it and that nigga is just tatted with some original off the wall heezy..............now tell me that aint a bitch?

[Silencioso]

Mayuga,

You demonstrated in an earlier post that you understand the difference between influence and direct copying. You used French coffee cake as the example. The French didn't invent all the ingredients of French cofee cake but they created the actual cake and it's a legitimate part of their unique culture.

That's what black gangbangers did in L.A. They took a few elements of the Cholo style - certain clothing items, graffitti lettering - and incorporated it into their already established gang culture. The end product of this was still distinctly black. At no point did Crips or Bloods look like black cholos.

The two ethnic groups that copied from cholos the most IMO are whites and Pinoy. There were white punker gangs like FFF and KAOS that used terms like "varrio" for their gang used the "13" in there name. Suicidals, S/S LADS and e few other white punker gangs became varrios, blending right into the cholo scene. The same with Pinoy gangs like STS, SZA, BNG etc. The use "varrio" for gang they rep 13 (sometimes), they structure the gang in the cholo style.

In the 90's, when the cholo style changed from combed back hair and pendletons to ultra baggy white t's and shaved heads , the whites, Armenians and flips followed right along. The Black guys didn't. I don't see any Crips or Bloods imitating the new school pelon cholo style, whatsoever. Maybe some east coast rappers like 50Cent that have no connection to L.A. but not real L.A. Crips and Bloods.

[mayugastank]

They imitate in other ways.Really guy my argument is that their are 2 distinct underground American cultures. 2 --thats it thats all. The Southwestern Chicano and the New York African American. Hence the East v West rivalry. Blacks out here are an extremely different breed as comparative to blacks nationwide. Consider that blacks have no tattoo culture outside of the ones we've brought them. That now they have topped down copied these styles. Would anyone ever get inked up in the manner of the YUKUZA without so much as acknowledgement to the people? In my opinion blacks copied most of what is Crip and Blood from the cholo. Their is absolutely no way these gangs developed the same exact forms of stacking/graff/dress/colors! Colors for Gods sake ----the same colors! How did this happen? You listen to their BS and they just accidentally came up with the same flags as the largest prison gangs. But really gangs are a dysfunction for both of our communities' and Ive focused more so on the fashion these gangs have made worldwide. The influence on music-skaters-tattoo culture-automobile modification-rock-fashion........Dogtown and Zboyz and Cypress Park-Booyah Tribe-and Lil Wayne-and Linking Parks ink -Good Charlottes inkwork-and The Games getdown.....Ed HArdy wear and Famous wear---Element and Vans ( a shoe worn by the cholo known as a CHINO) The modern graphic T with a thousand tattoo patterns exploited from the cholo. The new style Jordans with the JB and chicano artwork-the Gwen Stefani look that white girls copied coast to coast and the Rockerbilly look that is a fashion statement amongst all whites who got the handle from Orange County whites who copied the cholo! The caligraphy neckchain ---one of our most unique tattoo patterns ---showing up on every shirt* the look Snoop/Dre/Ice/Game..........sold to the USA as if it wasnt a chicano style!


My question is this would BLACKS EVER BOW DOWN THIS WAY? EVER?

They called Vanilla Ice to the carpet and blasted him for appropriating. What about them why arent we blasting them for it? Who besides me has ever even brought it up? whom? I mean here we have every ninja in the hood using our inkwork and not a freaking word about it........disrespect left and right.

[xxx]

Get a Life already. Let that shit go, its geting old and boring.

Your Bascially Mad that the World didnt adopt the "Cholo Style" from Cholos.

They adopted the Cholo Style from Blacks, the world wasnt digging it when Chicanos were doing, fucking nixxers made our style famous and we aint getting no credit for it, so i gotta campaign to correct History?

Get the fuck out of here with that dumb shit u fucking Loser!

We all borrow from eachother.

The Jazz Zoot Suit to the Hip Hop Culture to the certain Cholo Styles, we all copied eachother.

And im not sure about Blacks Copy the Cholo style to the T, like dude said, Crips and Bloods werent acting or Looking like Black Cholos, not like that. The early Black Gangs of the 40's and 50's, Slausons and Businessmen werent looking like Cholos. The Black Panthers were looking like Cholos, so whatthe fuck are you talking about?

All this shit is a Hybrid Underground Culture that collided with eachother.

[mayugastank]

Didnt and never has bothered me just pointing it out to you sorry asses who debated the origins of modern gang culture and LA cultures influence nationwide and worldwide! It isnt your culture -its mine. Its a hybrid American and Mexicano culture so you go ahead black vanilla ice and sag your dickies and get our ink! You look stuopid ass hell....but hey do YOU! Now a true proud race wouldnt bite as hard so just goes to show you! IMITATION is the highest form of flattery.......and yet at the same time you bite you insult and say you didnt bite. ...............lame fux stix.........as bad as vanilla ice loko!

[mayugastank]

silencioso....


"They took a few elements of the Cholo style - certain clothing items, graffitti lettering - and incorporated it into their already established gang culture."

A FEW?............................how about EVERYTHING.....from the type of clothes to the tattoos to the graff to the hand signs to the colors-to the modification of cars to the WHAT THE HELL IS LEFT? ..............what the hell else is left? I mean these wankster ass biting ass no good imitating asses actually brought threads into the 600+ count trying to PRETEND they didnt bite the hand that feeds em'...........forget them crush they asses they get nothing. Making me point it out to them --slipping and sliding claiming zootsuits.....what a joke.......I doubt they even created that El Paso Texans say they started it........and since we are seeing first hand today teh slippery ass way they bite our tattoo styles ----and how in a few years they will say they started it.............lets not pretend they dont have a history of eyeballing us for everything we do and then boldly sucking our nutsack and throwing it on vinyl!