Slavery Abolished...or just Changed name and approach?

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frozen fire
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Slavery Abolished...or just Changed name and approach?

Unread post by frozen fire » March 19th, 2008, 10:28 am

Funny how it says:
"The Arabs were the first to enslave Africans, then it was the Europeans."
So i guess it makes europeans Less Guilty :wink:



So anyways, Moving on.

First of all, it is useful to recall why the institution of slavery is thought of or remembered with such revulsion. Images of the brutal treatment of slaves, especially in ancient Rome and Egypt, provokes sorrow and deep disgust. That is why even after so many centuries, our conception of slaves is of men and women carrying stones to the pyramids and being used up in the building process like mortar, or fighting wild animals in public arenas for the amusement of their owners. We picture slaves wearing shameful yokes and chains around their necks.

Nearer modern times there is the practice of slavery on an enormous scale by the Western European nations; the barbarity and bestiality of this trade beggars all description. The trade was principally in Africans who were transported across the oceans, packed in specially designed ships, thought of and treated exactly like livestock. These slaves were forced to change their names and abandon their religion and their language, were never entitled to hope for freedom, and were kept, again like livestock, for hard labouring or for breeding purposes-a birth among them was celebrated as if it were a death. It is difficult to understand how human beings could conceive of fellow human beings in such a light, still less treat them thus. But it certainly happened: there is much documentary evidence that shows, for example, how ship-masters would throw their human cargo overboard in order to claim compensation for their loss. Slaves had no rights in law, only obligations; their owners had absolute rights over them to dispose of them as they wished-brothers and sisters, parents and children, would be separated or allowed to stay together according to the owner’s mood or his economic convenience.

After centuries of this dreadful practice had made the West European nations rich from exploitation of such commodities as sugar, cotton, coffee, they abolished slavery-they abolished it, with much self-congratulation first as a trade, then altogether. Yet the Muslim regions had also known considerable prosperity through the exploitation of sugar, cotton, coffee (these words in European languages are of Arabic origin), and achieved that prosperity without the use of slave labour. More important, let us also note, when the Europeans abolished slavery, it was the slave-owners who were compensated, not the slaves-in other words, the attitude to fellow human beings which allowed such treatment of them had not changed. It was not many years after the abolition of slavery that Africa was directly colonized by the Europeans with consequences for the Africans no less terrible than slavery itself. Further, because the attitude to non-Europeans has changed little, if at all, in modern times, their social and political condition remains, even where they live amid the Europeans and their descendants as fellow-citizens, that of despised inferiors. It is barely a couple of decades since the anthropological museums in the great capitals of the Western countries ceased to display, for public entertainment, the bones and stuffed bodies of their fellow human beings. And such displays were not organized by the worst among them, but by the best-the scientists, doctors, learned men, humanitarians

In short, it is not only the institution of slavery that causes revulsion in the human heart, it is the attitudes of inhumanity which sustain it. And the truth is, if the institution no longer formally exists but the attitudes persist, then humanity has not gained much, if at all. That is why colonial exploitation replaced slavery, and why the chains of unbearable, unrepayable international debt have replaced colonial exploitation: only slavery has gone, its structures of inhumanity and barbarism are still securely in place. Before we turn to the Islamic perspective on slavery, let us recall a name famous even among Western Europeans, that of Harun al-Rashid, and let us recall that this man who enjoyed such authority and power over all Muslims was the son of a slave. Nor is he the only such example; slaves and their children enjoyed enormous prestige, authority, respect and (shall we say it) freedom, within the Islamic system, in all areas of life, cultural as well as political. How could this have come about? :?:

Islam amended and educated the institution of slavery and the attitudes of masters to slaves. The Qur’an taught in many verses that all human beings are descended from a single ancestor, that none has an intrinsic right of superiority over another, whatever his race or his nation or his social standing. And from the Prophet’s teaching, upon him be peace, the Muslims learnt these principles, which they applied both as laws and as social norms:

Whosoever kills his slave: he shall be killed. Whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself, and whosoever castrates his slave shall himself be castrated. (Abu Dawud, Diyat, 70; Tirmidhi, Diyat, 17; Al-Nasa’i, Qasama, 10, 16)

You are sons of Adam and Adam was created from clay. (Tirmidhi, Tafsir, 49; Manaqib, 73; Abu Dawud, Adab, 111)

You should know that no Arab is superior over a non-Arab and, no non-Arab is superior over any Arab, no white is superior over black and no black is superior over white. Superiority is by righteousness and God-fearing [alone].
(Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 411)


Because of this compassionate attitude, those who had lived their whole lives as slaves and who are described in ahadith as poor and lowly received respect from those who enjoyed high social status (Muslim, Birr, 138; Jannat, 48; Tirmidhi, Manaqib, 54, 65). ‘Umar was expressing his respect in this sense when he said: ‘Master Bilal whom Master Abu Bakr set free’ (Bukhari, Fada’il al-Sahaba, 23). Islam (unlike other civilizations) requires that slaves are thought of and treated as within the framework of universal human brotherhood, and not as outside it. The Prophet, upon him be peace, said:

Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them. (Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 124)

Not one of you should [when introducing someone] say ‘This is my slave’, ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’.(Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2, 4)

For this reason ‘Umar and his servant took it in turns to ride on the camel from Madina to Jerusalem on their journey to take control of Masjid al-Aqsa. While he was the head of the state, ‘Uthman had his servant pull his own ears in front of the people since he had pulled his. Abu Dharr, applying the hadith literally, made his servant wear one half of his suit while he himself wore the other half. From these instances, it was being demonstrated to succeeding generations of Muslims, and a pattern of conduct established, that a slave is fully a human being, not different from other people in his need for respect and dignity and justice.

This constructive and positive treatment necessarily had a consequence on the attitudes of slaves to their masters. The slave as slave still retained his humanity and moral dignity and a place beside other members of his master’s family. When (we shall explain how below) he obtained his freedom, he did not necessarily want to leave his former master. Starting with Zaid bin Harith, this practice became quite common. Although our Prophet, upon him be peace, had given Zayd his freedom and left him a free choice, Zayd preferred to stay with him. Masters and slaves were able to regard each other as brothers because their faith enabled them to understand that the worldly differences between people are a transient situation-a situation justifying neither haughtiness on the part of some, nor rancour on the part of others. There were, in addition, strict principles enforced as law:

Whosoever kills his slave, he shall be killed, whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself. (Tirmidhi, al-Ayman wa l-Nudhur, 13)

Beside such sanctions which made the master behave with care, the slave also enjoyed the legal right to earn money and hold property independently of his master, the right to keep his religion and to have a family and family life with the attendant rights and obligations. As well as personal dignity and a degree of material security, the Islamic laws and norms allowed the slave a still more precious opening-the hope and means of freedom.

Human freedom is by God, that is, it is the natural and proper condition which must be regarded as the norm. Thus, to restore a human life, wholly or partly, to this condition is one of the highest virtues. To set free half of a slave’s body has been considered equal to saving half of one’s own from wrath in the next world. In the same way to set free a slave’s whole body is considered equal to assurance of one’s whole body. Seeking freedom for enslaved people is one of the causes for which the banner of war may be raised in Islam. Muslims were encouraged by their faith to enter into agreements and contracts which enabled slaves to earn or be granted their freedom at the expiry of a certain term or, most typically, on the death of the owner. Unconditional emancipation was, naturally, regarded as the most meritorious kind, and worthiest of recognition in the life hereafter. There were occasions when whole groups of people, acting together, would buy and set free large numbers of slaves in order to obtain thereby the favour of God.

Emancipation of a slave was also the legally required expiation for certain sins or failures in religious duties, for example, the breaking of an oath or the breaking of a fast: a good deed to balance or wipe out a lapse. The Qur’an commands that he who has killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave and pay the blood-money to the family of the slain (al-Nisa’, 4.92). A killing has repercussions for both society and the victim’s family. The blood-money is a partial compensation to the family of the victim. Similarly, the emancipation of a slave is a bill paid to the community-from the point of view of gaining a free person for that community. To set free a living person in return for a death was considered like bringing someone back to life. Both personal and public wealth were expended to obtain the freedom of slaves: the examples of the Prophet, upon him be peace, and of Abu Bakr are well known; later, especially during the rule of ‘Umar bin ‘Abd al-’Aziz, public zakat funds were used for this purpose.

Alas, there are, even among Muslims themselves, people who feel the need to somehow ‘disprove’ the worth of Islam, especially on socio-political issues. In reality they feel this need because they have been more or less seduced by Western values, even though these values are only formal, theoretical utterances of law and principle and not, not by any means, lived realities. Such people do not go among the wretched and poor of the so-called ‘third world’ and ask them about the merits of Western values as they are practised. Rather, they listen to an account such as we have given of the practised reality of Islamic values and claim, on purely theoretical grounds, that Islam is lacking in the best principles. This is what they say:

It is true that Islam has commended humanity in the treatment of slaves, and encouraged most forcefully their emancipation. We can see from the history of many different peoples in the Islamic world that slaves quickly integrated into the main society and achieved positions of great prestige and power, some even before they gained their freedom. And yet, if Islam regards slavery as a social evil, why did the Qur’an or the Prophet not ban it outright? There are, after all, other social evils which pre-existed Islam, and which Islam sought to abolish altogether-for example, the consumption of alcohol, or gambling, or usury, or prostitution. Why does Islam, by not abolishing slavery, appear to condone it?’

Until the evil of the European trade in black slaves, slavery was largely a by-product of wars between nations, the conquered peoples becoming the slaves of their conquerors. In the formative years of Islam, no reliable system existed of exchanging prisoners of war. The available means of dealing with them were either (i) to put them all to the sword; or (ii) to hold them and attend to their care in prison; or (iii) to allow them to return to their own people; or (iv) to distribute them among the Muslims as part of the spoils of war.

The first option must be ruled out on the grounds of its barbarity. The second is practicable only for small numbers for a limited period of time if resources permit-and it was, of course, practised-prisoners being held in this way against ransom, many so content with their treatment that they became Muslims and changed sides in the fighting. The third option is imprudent in time of war. This leaves, as a rule for general practice, only the fourth option, whence followed the humane laws and norms instituted by Islam for what is, in effect, the rehabilitation of prisoners of war.

The slave in every Muslim house had the opportunity to see at close quarters the truth of Islam in practice. His heart would be won over by kind treatment and the humanity of Islam in general, especially by the access the slave had to many of the legal rights enjoyed by Muslims, and, ultimately, by getting his freedom. In this way, many thousands of the very best people have swelled the numbers of the great and famous in Islam, whose own example has then become a sunna, a norm, for the Muslims who succeeded them-imams such as Nafi’, Imam Malik’s sheikh, and Tawus bin Qaisan, to name only two.

The reality is that in Islam it is overwhelmingly the case that being a slave was a temporary condition. Unlike Western civilisation, whose values are so much in fashion, slavery was not passed down, generation after generation in a deepening spiral of degradation and despair, with no hope for the slaves to escape their condition or their status. On the contrary, regarded as fundamentally equal, the slaves in Muslim society could and did live in secure possession of their dignity as creatures of the same Creator, and had steady access to the mainstream of Islamic culture and civilisation-to which, as we have noted, they contributed greatly. In the Western societies where slavery was widespread, particularly in North and South America, the children of the slaves, generations after their formal emancipation, remain for the most part on the fringes of society, as a sub-culture or anti-culture-which is only sometimes tolerated, and mostly despised, by the still dominant community.

But why, our critics will ask, when the Muslims were secure in their conquests did they not grant emancipation wholesale to former captives or slaves? The answer has, again, to do with realities not theories. Those former captives or slaves would not have either the personal, psychological resources or the economic resources needed to establish a secure, dignified independence. Those who doubt this would do well to examine the consequences upon the slaves in the former European or American colonies of their sudden emancipation-many were abruptly reduced to destitution, rendered homeless and resourceless by owners who (themselves compensated for their loss of property) no longer accepted any kind of responsibility for their former slaves. We have already noted the failure of these ex-slaves to enter upon or make a mark in the wider society from which they had been so long excluded by law.

By contrast, every good Muslim who embraced his slave as a brother, encouraged him to work for his freedom, observed all his rights, helped him to support a family, to find a place in the society before emancipating him, might well be pleased with an institution that opened to him a means of pleasing God. The example that comes first to mind: Zayd bin Harith who was brought up in the Prophet’s own household and set free, who married a noblewoman, who was appointed as the commander of a Muslim army which included many of noble birth. But one might swell the list of examples to many thousands if one had the space.

Ah yes, our critics will say, it may be so, but now there are exchanges of prisoners if there are wars, now the institution of slavery does not exist, so are not the Islamic injunctions, however good, an irrelevance? No, indeed. There is nothing in Islam whose origin is in the commands and guidance of the Qur’an which can ever become irrelevant. Rather, we would say to these critics: open your eyes, study by what subtle means wars are now conducted, by what cunning devices whole nations are now conquered; how they are reduced to a state of absolute slavery (which is yet not called slavery) and made to devote their whole energies, indeed to dedicate the lives of their children for generations to come, to sustain their masters (who are yet not called masters) in a lifestyle of unbelievable affluence. We say, study how national currencies are bought and sold, how impossible sums of money are lent on terms of extraordinary brutality, not in order to help the poor nations, but in order to permanently entrap them in a state of dependence. To those who say, now there is no slavery, we say look into the faces of the earth’s poor peasants, striving to grow (in an increasingly barren soil) commodities which are not food for themselves but luxuries for the rich, and only if they have grown enough of these, have they some hope of buying something to eat-but there are still millions of others too poor to be poor peasants, who live upon mountains of urban rubbish, earn from it, eat from it. If you study the expressions of such people, locked in endless, fruitless toil, you will understand that slavery is not an evil that Western civilisation has eradicated, rather one which Western civilization has ably disguised and distanced from itself.

Let no person, at least let no Muslim, claim that mankind has nothing now to learn from Islamic values about how to deal with the problem of slavery. On the contrary, we have everything to learn. How urgent, then, is our need to pray for guidance of God lest we persist in error, for His forbearance lest we persist in arrogance, for His help in finding a sure way to end the domination of those who do not know compassion except as a fine-sounding word.

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Unread post by frozen fire » March 19th, 2008, 10:56 am

Bottem Line is : In Islam, You can't capture a free man and sell him as a slave.
Slavery was Largly Due to war prisoners...and in this case, it was for their own benefit!

When a tribe or a group of people lose a major battle and their money is mostly, if not all, is taken as war booty by the other side, then people could and would accept being slaves for the following reasons:

1- Both financial and social security. When their country or tribe lost the war, they also lost most or all of their money as war booty. Being out of money and food, it becomes necessary for an individual to find the means for basic survival in life. Living as a slave would provide this.

2- Protection from hostile individuals. Even under the Islamic rule, you can still find hostile individuals who violate the Law and take matters into their own hands. An enemy family can be sometime in danger if they don't have a "protector".

3- Widows, Orphans, and the extremely poor of the enemy side need the financial and social protection from a Master. Back then, there were no governments with good social system that protects everyone. Slavery back then was that social system in special cases.

There are probably more points I can add, but I think these are sufficient enough

There clothing, Food and shelter Must be Provided for them and they are in many ways considered part of the family.
They can Buy their own freedom and they are not to be killed!

This is big difference from the European, Judeo-Christian and pagan slavery.

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 19th, 2008, 2:34 pm

-didnt the islamic succesor of the byzantine empire the ottoman empire ally with the evil white austrio-hungary empire and exploit slavic people(white people) for centuries??? hence the name slavic.

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Unread post by Silencioso » March 19th, 2008, 8:01 pm


whiskeyjack
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Re: Slavery Abolished...or just Changed name and approach?

Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 20th, 2008, 8:22 am

frozen fire wrote:Funny how it says:
"The Arabs were the first to enslave Africans, then it was the Europeans."
So i guess it makes europeans Less Guilty :wink:
-yep and the people being enslaved in sudan and mauratinia, i guess there black people are HAPPY being enslaved by the muslims in there country cause they need the protection

heres something to read
http://members.aol.com/casmasalc/mauritan.htm

at least the europeans and the evil white americans had abolishinists that are known

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 20th, 2008, 8:44 am

-i guess the psycological dependance of a slave to a white person when compared to an arab is different?

-i guess cause its written in the qu'ran and all the practicioners of islam are little angels its ok. NO WONDER slavery is mostly still practiced in muslim dominated countries.

-Whereas christianities western capitalism is more evil even though the so called slaves of the western world can generate income on move up the social heirarchy, broadcast there culture on TV without having to pay taxes like devşirme "blood tax" or "child collection"
young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kapıkulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman invasions of Europe.
-history has shown us that muslims steal babies from other countries and make them part of islamic society effectively brainwashing them and disconnecting them from there native societies. Then they use these new slave soliders to conquer there old native lands.

Wow seeing how iam partially slavic, sign me up im sure the next black african and i are really looking forward to conquer our old homelands in the name of islam

If white america were as hardcore as the muslims all african americans would be uncle toms

in my opinion

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Unread post by Silencioso » March 20th, 2008, 10:12 am

young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kap?kulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman invasions of Europe.
[quote]

That's some evil sh*t.

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 20th, 2008, 12:37 pm

Silencioso wrote:young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kap?kulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman invasions of Europe.

That's some evil sh*t.
Image

"Blood tax" (from Topkape Saraj); gravure that depicts young boys forcibly taken from their families to grow up in captivity and later become the elite of the Ottoman army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C5%9Firme



They were not exactly slaves, but were trained to be Elite Soldiers. And they were probably among the best of their times, everyone feared them.
They were not allowed to marry or be around women, they were stripped of their identity and extremely drilled. Thats how you produce fanatic super soldiers.
But unlike slaves the Janissaries were highly respected in Ottoman society and some made it into high political/militarical positions.

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 20th, 2008, 12:53 pm

whiskeyjack wrote:-didnt the islamic succesor of the byzantine empire the ottoman empire ally with the evil white austrio-hungary empire and exploit slavic people(white people) for centuries??? hence the name slavic.
The Ottomans and the Austro-Hungarian Empire were arch enemies. The Ottomans allied with France cause France was an Enemy of Austria too. The Ottomans tried to invade Vienna several times, without success.

A funny story on a sidenote:
After the attempted invasion of Vienna this bread (Croissants)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... issant.jpg

was invented, in honor of the bakers of Vienna, because during the Siege of Vienna the Ottomans tried to dig tunnels to undermine the city walls of Vienna to make them collapse. Since the bakers were awake in the early morning they alarmed the city guard who then in return started undermining the ottomans Tunnels and made them collapse like that. That was a common strategy during those times when trying to invade a city.
"Croissant" is french and means Crescent, resembling the Islamic crescent, like already mentioned in honor of Viennas bakers.



And also the term Slavic has been around before those times, has nothing to do with "slave".
There are two alternative scholarly theories as to the origin of the Slavs ethnonym, both very tentative: according to the first theory, it derives from a hypothetically reconstructed Proto-Indo-European *(s)lawos, cognate to Greek laós "population, people", which itself has no commonly accepted etymology. The second theory (forwarded by e.g. Max Vasmer) suggests that the word originated as a river name (compare the etymology of the Volcae), comparing it with such cognates as Latin cluere "to cleanse, purge", a root not known to have been continued in Slavic, however, and it appears in other languages with similar meanings (cf. Greek klyzein "to wash", Old English hlūtor "clean, pure", Old Norse hlér "sea", Welsh clir "clear, clean", Lithuanian šlúoti "to sweep").

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Unread post by EmperorPenguin » March 20th, 2008, 2:43 pm

Sentenza wrote: They were not exactly slaves, but were trained to be Elite Soldiers. And they were probably among the best of their times, everyone feared them.
They were not allowed to marry or be around women, they were stripped of their identity and extremely drilled. Thats how you produce fanatic super soldiers.
But unlike slaves the Janissaries were highly respected in Ottoman society and some made it into high political/militarical positions.
What's there to be afraid of? They're all just pent up horny men. Seriously, the opposing armies just had to have a large group of naked females walk out and these "Elite Soldiers" would have thrown down their weapons and surrendered. Not allowing them to be around women, stripped of their identity and drilling them constantly? Sounds like slavery to me, except not having women part, that's just torture.

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 20th, 2008, 3:55 pm

-didnt the janiassaries revolt after realizing there position in society?and eventually get disbanded, didnt the mamluks revolt also? They may have been highly respected but they took power for themselves cause i guess they were tired of being slaves

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 20th, 2008, 5:21 pm

[quote="EmperorPenguin"]

What's there to be afraid of? They're all just pent up horny men. quote]

Exactly and we all know that those are the most dangerous. :lol:

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 20th, 2008, 5:34 pm

whiskeyjack wrote:-didnt the janiassaries revolt after realizing there position in society?and eventually get disbanded, didnt the mamluks revolt also? They may have been highly respected but they took power for themselves cause i guess they were tired of being slaves
A mamluk (Arabic: مملوك (singular), مماليك (plural), "owned"; also transliterated mameluk, mameluke, mamaluke, or mamluke) was a slave soldier who converted to Islam and served the Muslim caliphs and the Ayyubid sultans during the Middle Ages. Over time, they became a powerful military caste, and on more than one occasion they seized power for themselves, for example ruling Egypt in the Mamluk Sultanate from 1250-1517.

The Mamluks were mostly of Turkish origin though, while the Janissaries were Eastern Europeans like you said. All the Muslim Minorities in SE Europe, like Albanians and Bosnians are descendants of the Ottomans

About the Janissaries:

As Janissaries became aware of their own importance they began to desire a better life. In 1449 they revolted for the first time, demanding higher wages, which they obtained. Similar scenarios took place a number of times during the following centuries. As the Janissaries were amassing more power and wealth, they gradually turned into a corrupt and largely useless caste, wielding an influence akin to that of the Roman Praetorian Guard. Finally, Mahmud II succeeded in forcibly disbanding them in 1826.

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 20th, 2008, 10:04 pm

-well it is still slavery in my opinion i bet the vast majority of them didnt volunteer
-sounds like you support it hell if someone came and took my spawn for a blood tax and converted him to another religon at an early age when kids are mentally vulnurable i would be very pissed

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 21st, 2008, 10:07 am

There has been a recrudescence of jihad slavery since 1983 in the Sudan

Slavery in the Sudan predates Islam, but continued under Islamic rulers and has never completely died out in Sudan. In the Sudan, Christian and animist captives in the civil war are often enslaved, and female prisoners are often used sexually, with their Muslim captors claiming that Islamic law grants them permission. According to CBS news, slaves have been sold for $50 apiece. In 2001 CNN reported the Bush administration was under pressure from Congress, including conservative Christians concerned about religious oppression and slavery, to address issues involved in the Sudanese conflict.CNN has also quoted the U.S. State Department's allegations: "The [Sudanese] government's support of slavery and its continued military action which has resulted in numerous deaths are due in part to the victims' religious beliefs."

Jok Madut Jok, professor of History at Loyola Marymount University, states that the abduction of women and children of the south by north is slavery by any definition. The government of Sudan insists that the whole matter is no more than the traditional tribal feuding over resources.

It is estimated that as many as 200,000 people had been taken into slavery during the Second Sudanese Civil War. The slaves are mostly Dinka people.


-ive also read somehwere that the muslims in europe will rape white european women and claim it as legit because they see themselves as invaders winning the war against the white european infidels

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 21st, 2008, 4:57 pm

whiskeyjack wrote:-well it is still slavery in my opinion i bet the vast majority of them didnt volunteer
None of them volunteered. They were forcibly taken.
whiskeyjack wrote: -sounds like you support it hell if someone came and took my spawn for a blood tax and converted him to another religon at an early age when kids are mentally vulnurable i would be very pissed
Where did you get that from? I dont support any idea of that kind, but i dont see how Muslim slave trade sticks out from any other kind of slave trade. Everyone has participated in it somewhere down the line, there is no point in pointing the finger at anyone, cause when it comes to slave trade all races and religions are full of shit, or have been at some point.

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 21st, 2008, 5:09 pm

whiskeyjack wrote: It is estimated that as many as 200,000 people had been taken into slavery during the Second Sudanese Civil War. The slaves are mostly Dinka people.
That is true, Muslims in Sudan do particpate in slave trade, but guess who is selling the slaves to them. Dinka chiefs themselves :shock:
whiskeyjack wrote: -ive also read somehwere that the muslims in europe will rape white european women and claim it as legit because they see themselves as invaders winning the war against the white european infidels
Yes people like that exist, but at the end of the day, they are just "usual rapists" who want to make themselves look less guilty. It is no orchestrated, organized event, like those people try to claim who always bring that up.
There is a certain kind of people who love to focus on everything that muslims do in europe and whenever something happens and even if its only a pickpocket, they make a headline out of it and scream "Al Qaida, Al Qaida".
And even though there are problems with integration and with religious issues, there is no war or invasion going on, period.
Funny thing is those are mostly the same people who dont like other religions and races in the first place anyways. Funny coincident.

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Unread post by oXJmAuPs2005Xo » March 21st, 2008, 11:45 pm

no slavery still exists in america today except in the form of slaving the working middle class to hold up the economy of the rich people and keep the welfare checks commin in for the poor people and single mothers this is my preception listen to kiotti's goin crazy freestyle.

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 22nd, 2008, 7:26 am

-i just got all nutso i acknolwedge the atlantic slave trade just as much as the eastern slave trade of people from africa, europe, india and caucus mountains. People think muslims are not guilty of slavery and white people cause we technically run the world are in the hot spot for the acts of western european nations.

-people say the muslim slave trade wasnt racist and i believe the whole process wasnt racist, but in the end i can garuntee you more africans were taken then whites

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Unread post by Unbreakable » March 25th, 2008, 3:14 am

whiskeyjack wrote:-didnt the islamic succesor of the byzantine empire the ottoman empire ally with the evil white austrio-hungary empire and exploit slavic people(white people) for centuries??? hence the name slavic.
I met a ex homeless guy who said he was a nazi before who claims that native americans and some asians are aryan cause all thsoe cultures from different parts of the world all share the swastika as an emblem. he claimed Hitler wasnt a racist hence why he allied the Japanese he was just about unifying the aryan races and fighting/destroying the enemy which were the slavs and jews. He claimed that the slavs are the true enemy and even now in israel and msot of the world no one wants them cause they are the poorest and dirtiest people of europe that try spreading to other countries and commiting crimes etc.

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Unread post by Unbreakable » March 25th, 2008, 3:18 am

Sentenza wrote:
Silencioso wrote:young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kap?kulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman invasions of Europe.

That's some evil sh*t.
Image

"Blood tax" (from Topkape Saraj); gravure that depicts young boys forcibly taken from their families to grow up in captivity and later become the elite of the Ottoman army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C5%9Firme



They were not exactly slaves, but were trained to be Elite Soldiers. And they were probably among the best of their times, everyone feared them.
They were not allowed to marry or be around women, they were stripped of their identity and extremely drilled. Thats how you produce fanatic super soldiers.
But unlike slaves the Janissaries were highly respected in Ottoman society and some made it into high political/militarical positions.
that's because white people were always the ebst soldiers and warriors hence why they are the toughest race. The wikings were the rulers of the world back in the day with small numbers who even made it to the new world way ebfore Columbus, the only other race that had similar exploits were the mongols. I have to admit the black pilots in ww2 were quite good though, but in ancient times there is a reason whties conquered everyone except basically asians and ottomans.

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Unread post by Unbreakable » March 25th, 2008, 3:18 am

jsut watch 300, no other race or culture accomplished such a feat. Those guys were hard of hard.

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Unread post by Unbreakable » March 25th, 2008, 3:22 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Auspicious_Incident

"The Auspicious Incident (or Event[1]) (in Turkish Vaka-i Hayriye) was the forced disbandment of the centuries-old Janissary corps by Ottoman sultan Mahmud II shortly before the French invasion of Ottoman Algeria.

By the early 17th century, the Janissary corps had ceased to function as an elite military unit. Many Janissaries were not soldiers and simply extorted money off the Turkish state and dictated its government, adding to the steady decline of the Ottoman Empire. Any sultan who attempted to modernize the Ottoman military structure and replace the Janissaries was either immediately killed or deposed.

By 1826, the Janissaries were almost universally hated throughout Turkey. When they noticed that the Sultan Mahmud II was forming a new army and hiring European gunners, they mutinied, but the Sipahis forced them to retreat to their barracks in the city of Thessaloniki. In the ensuing fight the Janissary barracks were set in flames by artillery fire resulting in a massive number of casualties. Survivors were either exiled or executed and their possessions confiscated by the Sultan."

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » March 25th, 2008, 8:23 am

To Unbreakable:

The white race does not exist, caucasians are not born and bred killing machines of the apocolypse

These children were taken at an early age and tutored in the arts of war for the sole purpose of killing in the name of there masters. The training is what makes them excellent killers.

Whether your comparing the spartans to the gurka's it all comes down to one thing training.

Take for example the training of ww2 soliders, americans were trained to overun open areas like the soviets whereas the germans trained there soliders to fight in narrow corriders. With a machine gun who do u think inflicted more damage? The german who was better trained.

Dont think the janissaries and mamluks were the only slave soliders of islam, there was also the black guard of morocco. These people werent exactly NFL football team these people were trained to protect african land in the name of a arabic king. These people had it differently from the janissaries. These guy were allowed to have babies for the sultan to keep in continued slave service, but these guys could be murdered at a whim by there master the sultan of morocco. These people were disconnected from the native tribe lands and brainwashed into service for the sultan. A good solider is a solider who is only loyal to his king. So disconnecting them from there heritage is what they did.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________


The Black Guard (in Arabic, Abid, from a root meaning "slave") were the corps of black-African slave-soldiers assembled by the Alaouite sultan of Morocco, Moulay Ismail (reigned 1672-1727). The Black Guard descended from black captives brought to Morocco from sub-Saharan Africa, who were settled in a special colony and given wives; their male offspring would be pressed into military careers at the age of sixteen. Considered more reliable than Arab or Berber warriors because of their lack of tribal loyalties, Ismail's black soldiers formed the bulk of his standing army and numbered 150,000 at their peak.

The Black Guard were charged with fighting Ismail's campaigns against the European-controlled fortress enclaves dotting his empire's coast (such as Tangier, captured from the English in 1684) and with patrolling Morocco's unstable countryside: They crushed rebellions against Ismail's rule not only by Moroccan Berber clans but also by Ismail's seditious sons, who defected from service as his provincial governors to insurrection as would-be usurpers of his throne.

Moulay Ismail always went about his court surrounded by a bodyguard of eighty black slave-soldiers, with muskets and scimitars at the ready in case of any attempt on the sultan's life. At his throne, Ismail was attended by a slave charged with twirling a parasol above the sultan at all times (on at least one occasion, Ismail pulled out his sword and murdered an attendant who had allowed the sun to briefly fall upon his sacred skin). Two more slaves fanned the flies away from his face, while a third held a napkin beneath his chin to collect his sacred spittle.

Though the Black Guard were fiercely loyal, they remained just as vulnerable to their commander's fits of rage as his European slaves and Moorish subjects. When the French ambassador Pidou de Saint-Olon was granted an audience with Moulay Ismail, the latter arrived at this meeting with his sleeves drenched in blood up to the elbows, after having slit the throats of two of his favorite black attendants on a whim. When Ismail's Barbary pirates brought in a Portuguese ship they had just captured, Ismail was presented a beautiful handcrafted hatchet found on board: the sultan immediately struck and killed a Black Guard for no other reason than to test the blade.

Despite endless civil wars and civil slaughter, the Black Guard remained brutally loyal and disciplined through the turmoil of Ismail's reign. More than any other factor did they enable the sultan to remain on Morocco's throne for half a century.

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 25th, 2008, 11:16 am

Unbreakable wrote: that's because white people were always the ebst soldiers and warriors hence why they are the toughest race. The wikings were the rulers of the world back in the day with small numbers who even made it to the new world way ebfore Columbus, the only other race that had similar exploits were the mongols. I have to admit the black pilots in ww2 were quite good though, but in ancient times there is a reason whties conquered everyone except basically asians and ottomans.
Other cultures had their share of good warriors too, like the Samurai in Japan, the Aztec Cuachicqueh, the Maori etc
Heres an incomplete list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior#Warrior_classes
And lets not forget, even the Mongols and the Vikings were defeated at times. The Mongols by the Mamluks while attempting to invade Egypt and the Vikings were driven out of North America by the Natives.

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Unread post by punamusta » March 25th, 2008, 11:59 am

Sentenza wrote: And lets not forget, even the Mongols and the Vikings were defeated at times. The Mongols by the Mamluks while attempting to invade Egypt and the Vikings were driven out of North America by the Natives.
Vikings also never could settle into Finland even though Scandinavia (home of the vikings) is so close to us. There's a lot of stories of how Vikings were defeated in the battles by Finnish "forest clans" and their kings (at that time Finns basically were divided into a different clans/tribes that lived under their own "king"). Some of those clans were very powerful at that time, and they tend to allure vikings to come to the rivers in inland areas and then attack them from the both sides of the river so that they couldn't escape. It is also said that vikings were afraid of the powerful magic that they believed Finnish "shamans" and magicians possessed. They didn't want to get cursed by them, so they rather avoided the Finns.

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Unread post by Sentenza » March 26th, 2008, 1:17 pm

punamusta wrote:
Sentenza wrote: And lets not forget, even the Mongols and the Vikings were defeated at times. The Mongols by the Mamluks while attempting to invade Egypt and the Vikings were driven out of North America by the Natives.
Vikings also never could settle into Finland even though Scandinavia (home of the vikings) is so close to us. There's a lot of stories of how Vikings were defeated in the battles by Finnish "forest clans" and their kings (at that time Finns basically were divided into a different clans/tribes that lived under their own "king"). Some of those clans were very powerful at that time, and they tend to allure vikings to come to the rivers in inland areas and then attack them from the both sides of the river so that they couldn't escape. It is also said that vikings were afraid of the powerful magic that they believed Finnish "shamans" and magicians possessed. They didn't want to get cursed by them, so they rather avoided the Finns.
Wouldnt doubt it. The main advantage the Vikings had was the Element of surprise. They had the best ships and knew all the naval routes around Europe. No one ever knew where they would show up next so it was impossible to be prepared and before a regular army could show up to fight them back, they were already gone. They also liked to hit soft target with the maximum amount of loot, like monasteries and villages and only on rare occasions they went for the big ones, like when they besieged Paris.
They were pretty much like the Mongols, when they had the battle going their way, they were almost invincible. The Mongols were masters on their horses. They were fast and knew how to kill from the back of a horse. They mastered horse archery for example. When they approached you, you had three arrows between your eyes before you even knew what was happening. In hand to hand combat against a regular well equipped army, both of them wouldnt have stood a chance.
They were the kings of Guerilla warfare.
When it comes to classical army vs. army warfare i would say the Romans and the chinese take the cake with all their crazy ass tactics and strategies. hehe and the Germans of course :lol: :wink:
But Sun Tzus Art of War is still a standard reference for military experts up to this day and that shit is almost 2000 years old.

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Unread post by Unbreakable » April 5th, 2008, 2:53 pm

whats funny is that same guy who said he used to be a nazi allied with black gangs and was homeless, who claimed nazis werent racists and hence why they were allied with the japanese, and simply wanted an aryan rulling class and claimed all the cultures the nazis were allied with and in many parts of the world all share the swastika including native americans. He also started that Tookie wrote in his book that if he was born in the third reich he would be a nazi, the reason is casue the nazis were just thugs, they werent these political racists everyone made them outt o be but simply a bunch of guys who were beating people up and starting riots before hitler gained power and basiclaly just a street gang. ANyway he asked me if I knew that road warrior and mad max were filmed with no doubles or special effects or something and I said no to whcih eh got angry and said "Yous eriously didnt know that?" and said "Have some pride in ur race man". He alsos aid that everytime a black guy calls a white a "white boy" i is bringing them down and basically trying to own them and I shouldnt let them eevr call me that, and that these white people today are pussified and nothing like his generation was. He couldnt udnerstand how whites were kicking @ss and going from iwo jima raising the american flag to being punks like theya re today. He kept tlaking about white people to me egtting really angry and almost red on his face saying "White People!!, man this is what I dont get about these spoiled white people today..."

Oh and the other thing I forgot to mention about this guy is that he got stabbed recently outside a bar and they had this whole scheme where people were running form one part of the parking lot to the other all trying to set a trap for hima nd get him somehow, and they had all these people involved running etc. He said it happened cause he isnulted the guy and the guy along with his friend waited like an hour for him to leave the bar than when he did he saw him coming and quickly knocked him out with a elft hook than looked at his stomach that was bleeding from getting quickly stabbed. He said he was a marine and did alot of boxing so he disposed of him quick but all these other people almsot got to him. He also claims when he was a marine he traveled around the world and said some of the ghettos in countries liek france are worse than the ones in the u.s. He also knew about the projects in big cities in the u.s. how people would shoot down the buildings and seemed actually kind of educated to me despite the fact the majority of the time I knew him he was living off the streets. he claimed he goes to the library tor ead books all the time, and unliek those other homeless people he had a haircut and shaved and wear descent clothes and didnt seem like them, to this he replied "oh thats why it ry not to hang out with them if I dont have to." I just found it kind of fuinny cause the guy was mixed betweens till being a nazi, being a bit loony or crazy, and grimy at the same time.

I wanted to meet him with another wood who I saw smash on two pakis once outside the abrs and did some time in pelican bay who I knew and that half antive american guy who I told u guys about who hits women sometimes and doesnt find anything wrong with it casue its in the bible and uses his boxing training to beat people up always saying how he ebat up soem mexican ro threw someone down the stairs, etc. and claiming the easiest guys to ebat up are army guys or black guys in jail. And when i told this ex nazi about those guys he was like "what r u trying to do here?" I replied "what do u mean?" he then said "Are u trying to satrt something criminal? Cause if so just tell me upfront. nothign wrong with that I mean look at all these palces we could tax..." to which I giggled inside kind of.

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Unread post by whiskeyjack » April 6th, 2008, 6:25 pm

^--- thanks for sharing that kodak moment with us, thats a great weight off me mind :?

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