race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

These concepts are socially constructed and have been given much weight. What are your thoughts?
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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by E`S`T » February 6th, 2004, 3:32 pm

homie you need to quit posting such long ass posts. nobody is gonna read the shyt cause it's too long. you sound like a broken record.lol

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 6th, 2004, 3:33 pm

TheReal, you're all over the board and you missed the point of most of what I was saying. lolol and not because I didn't state it directly or correctly either. I have to work some now but will certainly post a reply taking your replies one at a time. Until then, have a great day I hope. Peace.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 6th, 2004, 3:38 pm

This is in response to Interested Guy:

-Well stated wcrockets. The real has some valid points but like you said he just takes things to the extreme and ends up alienating others.

*I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not here to alienate folks, NOR BECOME THEIR FRIENDS!! You guys don't know me, how I look, and vice-versa. This is a site, like many other sites that I've visited, where I can discuss my views, and put forth my beliefs, which I believe in 100%.

-He argues that hispanics or latinos are 'silent' about racism in their own ranks, but that is simply not true as state raised and sam doobie would be the first ones here (and have for that matter) checked on posters for their ignorance.

*Regardless of whether that's true, or not-THIS IS THE INTERNET!!!! I'm referring to real life, not what goes on in cyberspace!!!! The folks you've just mentioned know I'm right. If anything, they feel emboldened in doing what they're doing probably, BECAUSE THIS IS THE INTERNET, as opposed to real life's circumstances! I'm no fool. And even if they did address the racism in their community, GOOD FOR THEM!! But ultimately they'd be few and far between, compared to what the majority of their people do! And they know this as well!

-Real seems to only take examples that suit his agendas.

*Everyone has agendas, however, if you're telling me that the information that I've posted up contain examples that are false, then that's just plain, unadulterated b.s.! Everything that I've stated, as well as examples, IS THE TRUTH, regardless of what agenda, or agendas you feel that I'm espousing!

-He can go to a website and look at what some ignoramuses wrote about blacks and whatnot, but how is that representative of anybody?

*Because of the simple fact that what is on the internet, to many folks dislike, is a microcosm, of the sentiments, or potential sentiments, that are presently out there in the real world. Secondly, mexican hatred towards black folks, and my knowledge of it, isn't just confined to what I've discovered on the net, but what I've seen, heard and experienced, throughout my life-as well as other blacks!

-I remember back in the mid 90's, many asian immigrant families were viciously harrased in the housing projects up in the Bay Area. I'm not talking about straight name calling, I'm talking about assaults and property damage, being intimidated to the point that they were forced to move out. Some even had the gall to say that it wasn't racist or hateful in nature. Did I see the black gang members who lived in that area speak out against this hate crime, or the black politicians? No I didn't.

*Again, you're not telling me anything, based on the fact that I've previously stated-ad infinitum-THAT BLACK FOLKS ARE NO ANGELS!!!!! Having said that, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH BLACK FOLKS DEFENDING THEMSELVES AGAINST MEXICANS AND WHITE SUPREMACISTS, WHO SEEK TO ULTIMATELY KILL, CONTAIN, AND ANNIHILATE THEM!!!

You see, I am flexible and can chew gum, and walk at the same time. In other words, I can condemn the racism of those blacks upon asians, and other non-black folks wantonly, and STILL CALL BLACK FOLKS TO ARMS AGAINST AN ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE BY RACIST MEXICANS AND WHITE FOLKS! Whether it be on the streets, or in the prison systems!!!

What? Just because some black folks commit, some acts of racism, that now takes away from my arguments about black folks defending themselves???

-Or an even better example, the L.A. riots. I posted this out previously, but EME higher ups (from a newspaper article I read) were particularly incensed that black gangs were indiscriminately beating up latino civilians out on the streets.

*I agree that this occured, because many of the mexicans were being mistakened for white folks, as well as the fact that many of them were letting off their steam, in regards to mexicans and their racism!

Another thing that's interesting in this whole matter, is the fact that you had a whole slew of rioters that were mexican, as well as mexicans, and other latinos robbing and looting asian stores. Also, you had a couple of mexicans beating up white folks, along with the black rioters.

There was this one white guy, who was foolishly delivering the "gospel" amidst the rioting, who was attacked and beaten down so severely, to where he was left comatose.

-I don't recall the mayor of L.A. calling for an end to the hate crimes committed by black gang members against innocent civilians. I might also mention, on the flip side, that many black civilians risked their own lives to protect the lives of latinos, whites, asians, during the riots.

I'm not the biggest expert on gangs/gang politics, but it has to be more than coincidence that race relations between black and latino gangs got worse since the riots and have never improved. A lot of it has to do with power and money, and this had to have solidified gangs based on racial lines.

*Now mind you, I'm not sugar coating any of what had occurred, but if you're trying to convince me, that the hatred that I've seen coming from mexicans onto blacks, is due to the L.A. riots of the 90's-I'D SAY THAT YOU'RE LYING!! Why? Because look at all what white folks have done to your people (I'm assuming you're mexican), including the zoot-suit riots, but yet those racist, flatigious, devilish beasts (La Eme) will still ally with white supremacists, and have as the head of its' organization-A WHITE MAN!!!!!

So naw man, I will condemn black folks wrongdoings, but if you're trying to make the ultimate link now, to what happened then, then mexicans ought to make those same links to white folks, and how they've historically oppress mexicans, BUT THEY DON'T!!! That's why I call mexicans that are racist "devils" and THE NEW WHITE SUPREMACISTS!!

I'm out for now, but will be back next week. Peace!

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by stateraised2000 » February 6th, 2004, 4:21 pm

whewwwwwwwwww...no more lng ass posts till monday...

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by blakman » February 6th, 2004, 4:37 pm

I will stand and fight as a black man for the brothers and sisters who are unwilling to stand up for themselves and see that we are being attacked by racist people who want nothing but our distruction and I will not sit here and let it go down like that. Not without blowing sh_t up first.
peace.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by E`S`T » February 6th, 2004, 5:45 pm

LOL...^^^^^

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by stateraised2000 » February 6th, 2004, 6:04 pm

ha ha, "the real" got the miltants all pumped up now...

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 7th, 2004, 2:39 pm

This is a reply for The Real:

*No, I have many viewpoints, which leads back to one point, or center.

Me: I'm sure you do but the aggregate of your posts leaves one looking at the core of a linear one-dimensional argument based on the "epiphany" you seem to have had regarding your whole "mexicans are the new nazis" argument.

*If you're claiming that I'm a flamethrower for my point of view, THEN YOU'RE RIGHT! There's no shame in my game, as it relates to the information I'm putting forth. However, if you're saying that I have an agenda that I'm trying to put forth, THEN YOU'RE WRONG!!! I address the issues that are of interest to me: nothing more, nothing less! And you know what? I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ATTACH MYSELF ONTO AN ARGUMENT THAT I FEEL IS INTERESTING, OR THAT PIQUES MY CURIOSITY!

ME: Yes you do but it is shallow and isolates people from you to shove your opinion down everyone's throat in such a one-dimensional manner. You would be taken much more seriously if you were able to converse on many subjects in a non one dimensional manner showing other races the respect you expect. In other words, valuing people higher than simply harranging them with your mission.

*Hell yeah I can admit to being wrong in certain areas! Did I not say that I ultimately wish for you and other folks to be right, and me wrong, for the cause of greater humanity? Just read over all my information!

Me: A martyr's position is being taken here. The only problem is that you aren't one. You just think you are. But that's good you can admit to being wrong. Any wise person will including myself.

*Part of my solution will only entail violence, if needs be. In other words, I believe in forming defense militias against predators within the black race, as well as without, similar to the black panthers. The black panthers formed their organization in order to deal with police brutality, similar to the deacons for defense in Louisiana-even though they focused mainly on white supremacists in general. I'm shocked that you folks haven't figured that out yet! I'm not advocating violence for the sake of violence, rather for self-defense purposes!! The fact that you have mexican gangs, along with their white allies, making war on black gangs and people in general, that is outside the framework of normal gang confrontations, but are leaking into the areas of racism and genocide, only compels me to argue for unity amongst black gangs: not in necessarily giving up their identity or space, but rather a unity of purpose against mexican gangs, who seek their annihilation SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK! Remember, many blacks view mexican gangs and them fighting blacks, as just simple gang warfare, whereas mexicans that are fighting black folks, SEE IT AS A RACE WAR! So why am I the bad guy, for asking black gangs to reassess their enemy (mexican gang members, in this instance), and view them as a group of folks hell-bent on genocidal purposes, with the philosophy of "OPEN SEASON ON ALL N!GGERS!" Why am I wrong for telling black folks, that when you deal with such a beast, that you should decapitate that devil, and hang them on a cross as a symbol to any devil that tries to cause genocide and containment of their people!!

Me: Well allow me to retort with my own long informed post.. lol. Most educated people in the USA, that I have talked too feel the types of organization(s) which, if I am hearing you correctly, you are expousing for people to create and join to "defend the Black race" would simply be filled by some and most likely just be the graduation to the next level for the unrepentant gangmember not already locked down and caught up in prison gang culture. The truth is The Real is that the black population's not going along for that ride. They aren't going to polarize their race by turning their neighborhoods into Black only armed enclaves conferring their will and future into the hands of a few radical extremists pretty much ensuring near complete isolation and poverty for their people. Honestly your "solution" would only lead to more Black heartache and suffering one hundred fold to today's. Especially after the backlash happened.

The synergy you are looking for, in my opinion, would simply create a rerun of what did not already work in the 60's (with few exceptions) resulting in yet another generation of young people's lives being greatly harmed. (Most of the hardened charismatic gangmembers of the sixties, for example, that formed and joined these types of organizations ended dead, in prison, or changed and worked for or are working within the system to bring change).

The vast majority of the hyper-idealistic movements of the previous century went bad as well. The cause was not the due to a lack of motivation on the part of the movement's members but rather was doomed from the start as the hyper-idealistic philosophical premises don't translate into real world reality well (ie Take the "Communism" experiments for example). Along the way they did great harm to a great many people. The ones that did work (ie Cuba) resulted in persecution and economic decline. The reason is because after the revolution, there was not a transfer of power back to the people. If there had been, the situation that exists today (ie sanctions) would not exist today. People who are good at tearing things down often are not the best people to build things back up differently afterwards. And history shows that despots who run revolutions don't want to relenquish power voluntarily. In the revolutionary philosophies you appear to be expousing, in my opinion, there never will be a peaceful transfer of power back to the people by the revolutionaries. That is simply idealism which WILL NOT transfer into reality afterwards.

An alternative view would be for members to develop a social consience, of course, but without attempting to copy the failed patterns of the past. Perhaps, applying the idealism in a nonviolent way today and working with the existing systems might be a good place to start. Build families, educate politically, take back your spending and economic power from Wall Street, get the young people to put down the gun and pick up books. You could start with the Bible.

Your rage is understandable but that doesn't mean people, families, and organizations of people aren't getting over within the system and without the consequences of what your argument will bring on them. It just means it takes more effort and time than the ones who have the luxury of the silver spoon in their mouth. I've done it this way myself and some of the benefits are: increased character and personal growth.

Honestly The Real, revolutionaries band together to tear things down but real men band together to build that which lasts. It's easy to grab up a biscuit and start changing your heart into a stone in the name of a hyper-idealistic political philosophy because of the hate inside you. The problem is that it doesn't get you where you need to go. It will just pit you against a much larger majority of people that will resist you. You will become a pawn of whatever organization you choose to join and live in bondage to it and it's rules. Historically the infighting and killing that can go on in these organizations is pretty hairy. You trade a good measure of liberty found in a Democracy for a very authoritarian environment that keeps you in bondage. There will be blood on your hands and you will not have a heart of love but of stone. I don't want that for anyone. I certainly don't go on message boards urging people to throw themselves away like that. I want to see them build themselves and their loved ones up.

So instead of fighting against a system that is working for most people in this country, why not start to harness the opportunities inside it to affect change for you and your future generations. Many have gone before you and succeeded. It is hard and there is failures along with successes but along the way you gain true character instead of the idealized vision of it you see in your inner mind.

Get real. Start with yourself. Get out the chalk and draw a circle around you. That's where to start. With everything in that circle not everything else outside it. The paradox is that you can't do it all by yourself. You need that higher power to ultimately succeed (ie God).

*When this country goes to war with other nations, and try to kill their enemies, in the name of national defense, and it is justified, then why can't I, or other blacks do the same-seeing as how mexican racists and white supremacists agendas for black folks, aren't all too pretty! Hell, at least I'm talking about striking back, when attacked, unlike many (not all) mexican racists and white supremacists! Their collective philosophy is-AGAIN: "Kill a n!gger, no matter gang affiliation, or not!" And what I'm arguing is that it will get worst, particularly in the southwestern portions of the U.S. for black folks-JUST WAIT AND SEE!!

ME: Countries with legitimate governments that defend themselves or fight illegitimate governments ruled by despots is one thing. A gang of people from one race that form together to essentially produce a "hate group" and war on their "perceived" enemies (ie read anyone they don't like that looks different) inside a country is something entirely different from both a legal, historical, and moral perspective regardless of whether they are black, brown, yellow, white, purple, green, etc... As for self defense, that can take legitimate and illegitimate forms as well.

*Nope! And why would you think that????? [regarding nicknames].

ME: Because I don't know and this is the internet and we've had problems with trolls playing games in here before. Thank you for answering. I believe you are serious in what you believe now at this time.

*Noooooooooooo...did I not admit that whites and mexicans have interfamily squabbles amongst themselves?? I think I can recall me saying this on several occasions! True enough, you will have skirmishes between the two groups, now and then, HOWEVER, these two groups can still find it within the other group racially to unite on the points that I had addressed, from my previous post-and you, and other folks know this!!!

The thing these two groups have in common, besides being allies, and being members in each other’s organizations, IS THERE HATRED AND GENOCIDAL DESIGNS UPON THE BLACK COMMUNITY!!!! Let's be real about this!!!!

ME: The underground is like that. Above the surface though in the hundreds of thousands of churches, many businesses, integrated neighborhoods, and small communities all over America the vast majority of people work with, live with, have friendships with the Black Community. They have no genocidal designs. To me, you sound as if you've spent your whole life in the projects and never formed these bonds and seen what goes on in the rest of the world. I have Black friends from all over the place and I assure you I respect and love them and have none of the designs you are mentioning.

*No, I'm right in the sense that MOST mexicans are racist, as it stands now in 2003!

ME: I don't have those stats. I know in my church and community that is not so. I do suspect in the inner city the ratio is higher.

*Well, that's your opinion, but in my book, I feel that I covered all areas...

ME: I'm sure you do. Now we need to get back to admitting when we are not always right don't WE.

*Well I'm sorry if I'm not discussing this particular topic with a smile, or with a less sense of urgency, that others may want me to possess! I don't walk in the spirit of non-violence, nor do I wish to be a good "negro"! And as far as the word "devil", well if you were to read carefully, I'm not calling a whole race of people "devils", just those who manifest certain characteristics.

ME: Ok. Though violence begets violence so expect it to come back on you when you practice it.

*More importantly, YOU'RE WRONG! What it is, is that your assessment of my arguments is "all lopsided", because in the end, you're seeing what you want to see, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I HAD WRITTEN!

ME: I have a brain. I'm an educated person who has been around. Your argument doesn't move me because it's a shallow rerun of what has already not worked.

*This statement right here just let's me know that you're trying to engage in sarcasm, based on certain remarks of mine-but it doesn't work. Here's a suggestion: go back and read the context and subtext, of why I had used the word "angels", in my discussion. If you don't, then you'll be relegated to what you're doing now-taking a text, out of context, which is a pretext (falsely stated purpose)!

ME: No I wasn't. I believe in angels. I am a Christian.

*Say man, if you're getting metaphysical and esoteric with a brother, please calm down. Right now, you appear to be so bent out of shape, from what I've said, to where you're placing quotation marks around the word "angels", as if my use of the word, fell under your definition, of how you're using it!!

ME: I'm not bent. We're having a discussion. If you were talking to me you would see a calm person in front of you. I might make a face or two when you say something I disagree with but I'm listening.. It's a discussion. I can use quotations if I want to same as you. They are on my keyboard. You do realize that typing in all caps constitutes yelling at someone don't you.

*I hope you're right, but with this younger generation-I don't know...

ME: The younger generation has reached out a lot more than the older one in this country in my experience. I haven't seen any stats to support it but are you seeing a backlash or something?

*You know why? BECAUSE I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE GOOD WHITE FOLKS THAT ASSISTED BLACK PEOPLE WITH THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS!!! The context of my discussion was talking about those "good" white, or mexican folks, who claim not to be haters and racists, yet they tolerate, and live easily and comfortably, with the racism coming from their people, and how their people exercise that racism, in order to oppress and suppress, the movement of others: THAT'S WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO!!!

Within the context, of the issue I was addressing, I didn't make a logical miscalculation! Okay, if you want me to admit that there were white folks that helped black people attain many of their rights-I WILL ADMIT THAT, if it makes you feel good, but know this: THAT WASN'T THE POINT, NOT EVEN THE SUBTEXT, OF WHAT I WAS ADDRESSING!! (For further clarification of what I was getting at, just reread the post, this man has a problem with.)

ME: It should be though as it looks like you're trying to organize by race a militant organization(s) in pursuit of your idealist philisophy which as I've already previously shown doesn't work and just makes things worse. The masses don't need more racial tension they need to less. Historically, if a true revival swept this country a LOT more good would be accomplished in the Black Community than any hyper-idealistic race war.

*Look, I'm not foolish enough to think that "lower class whites" were total victims, of the hegemony machine, that was in operation by their elitist white brethren. Truth be told, many of your "lower class whites" had a vested interest in keeping blacks beneath them, in the sense that-IF THEY COULDN'T BE BETTER THAN BLACK FOLKS, THEN WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THEM!!!!

White elitists in the south didn't teach these lower class whites about racism, that dilemma started from the ground up! White folk were collectively racist in the south, because they were products of white supremacy and white privilege!! Another thing-it doesn't matter if many of their elitist brethren were pulling strings, in order to maintain the status quo, because 1) many of the lower class whites would rather have their own kind (white folks) being in a position of power oppressing them, which essentially gave them hope, or self-esteem despite their circumstances-WHITE FOLKS WERE STILL IN CONTROL; and 2) lower class whites, despite their "exploitation" by the hands of their elitist brethren, were some willing “exploitees!!” In other words, they hated black folks so intensely, despite allegedly being pawns in a larger game, so to speak-THAT MANY OF THEM HATED BLACK FOLKS, MORE SO THAN THEY LOVED THEIR OWN CHILDREN!! And you know this!

ME: Ok, I defer to you here. I've taken a lot of history and am well read but that doesn't make me an expert on the South and you may be.

*Most of the whites that joined the Civil Rights movement, were from up north, and they were primarily jewish. Now this isn't to say that whites from the south didn't help in the Civil Rights movement, rather, I'm just adding a bit of historical perspective to your statements.

Secondly, when you say that "many good people of all races" helped to bring about "Civil Rights movement's victories", don't make it sound as if there were a drove of asians and mexicans, heading down south, in order to help black folks get the right to vote, etc. Now I will admit, folks like Joan Baez, and probably a few other non-blacks, who were non-white, aided and abetted black folks during this time, but it was miniscule in comparison to white folks.

White folks were the only non-black group (and I'm including jews, even though many whites and others, don't view jews as being white) in droves, to really assist black folks back in the day!

ME: Ok. I accept that.

-Also, it's interesting that every single one of his posts to date are in threads entitled "Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2," "Re: If B's and C's united, could they take out Mexican gangs," "Re: WHAT DOES 13 MEAN," "Re: CHOLOS AND CHOLAS," "Re: Los Angeles County Jail? [posting his, in my opinion, is his mexican=white racist argument]", and lastly "Man, cut the BS! [talking about the clothes thing]."

*Uh...as I said earlier: I HAVE A RIGHT TO ADDRESS THE TOPICS THAT I FIND INTERESTING, AND WHY DOES IT THREATEN YOU??

ME: It doesn't threaten me I am just seeking to understand you better and if all of your 34 posts are related to one position then that should be brought out so we know that.

*Would you ask a soldier on the battlefield, whose duty is to defend his ground, and possibly the people he’s looking after, whether or not he was obsessed? Would you ask the farmer whose land is overrun with insects eating up his produce, if he were obsessed, if he decided to use pesticides on his fruits and vegetables? Or better yet, would you have asked Martin Luther King if he were obsessed with his drive, to bring about freedom for black people, whether you agreed, or disagreed with King’s ultimate goals? Of course you wouldn’t, so why ask such a question of me?

ME: In my opinion, you are a self-commissioned soldier fighting the battle in the wrong way for the wrong reasons in my opinion. I disagree with your approach and have already stated why. I would never compare you to Dr Martin Luther King based on your hypothesis. And I do believe he is RIP.

As I said earlier, I, like anyone else here, am addressing topics that interest me personally, no more, no less. Trust me, it’s not a mystery!!

ME: Ok.

What’s more important is the integrity of my information, and the truth that is contained therein. Peace.

ME: I think your argument is flawed and in error. Peace.
Last edited by wcrockets on February 7th, 2004, 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Representando » February 7th, 2004, 3:30 pm

TheReal wrote:
Representando wrote:Young Nile stop it with your stupid "the other day i was talking to a Mexican" please man shut up, all you want to do is make the Mexicans look bad. And what if I went to spain? So what? What the hell would they call me? I don't think they would call me anything, about a week ago I was watching this show in a Mexican channel (Toma Libre) and Facundo the guy who hosts the show was in spain wearing a shirt that said Mexico on it, he also told them he was Mexican and they were cool with him and happy to meet him. They never called him anthing, they treated him like everyone else.
*Look man, SPANISH ARE WHITE!!
-You mean where white because in Spain and in Mexico about 85% of the population (or more) have brown skin. The other percent may have white skin but they don't have the characteristics of a real white person and also even if they are white they are mestizos but they just happened to come out with light (or lite don't know) skin.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by jb7777 » February 7th, 2004, 7:10 pm

Spanish dont look any browner than Sicilians and the only reason that they have that color is because they were conquered by the moors.(african muslims)Otherwise Spanish, Sicilians, and Portuguese would look like the Germans, French,and other caucasions...however they are no where near the brown of most other "Latinos"

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Representando » February 7th, 2004, 9:19 pm

What you said about Spaniards being not as brown as sicilians that may be true but then again we use the word blacks to refer to african americans but are they really black I mean the actual color? No they are dark brown,light brown some very light skinned. Also we sometimes use the word whites for americans, canadians w/e but are they really the color white? No they have peach colored skin some even rosy kind of colored skin. Most latin people have light brown skin. Also what I was referring to was that most Spaniards and Mexicans have light brown skin, when I said brown I didn't actually mean the color brown but thats the way some of us refer to the skin color of different kinds of races.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Anonymous20 » February 8th, 2004, 4:03 am

InterestedGuy wrote:Hello all,
"In regards to this original topic, growing up in the 80's I hardly ever heard about widespread Black/Mexican racial conflicts."

In the late 70's/mid 80's most if not all gang wars were within their own race. It was common to interact with members of another race who shared the same turfs.

"It seems like the L.A. riots was a turning point."

I'd most certainly agree with that assertion. I believe it had something to do with a few incidents involving violence on mexicans during the uprise. It is my recollection that the sureno's/mexican mafia ordered unity and a cease fire amongst latino gangs for revenge.

Every since then it appears MOST mexican gangs have provoked or engaged with war on black gangs sharing the same turf. Alot of these sets live next door to one another and grew up together.

The Rascals- Longo's, 18- BPS/20's, ECC- F13, ETC.)

The outcome of these beefs can make dramatic changes from the streets to prison. On the streets the Latino's have no beef with the Rollin 60's, but in jail they have greenlights. In prison they have no time for small wars, they must downplay their beefs with ECC, 60's, etc and prepare for the Norte's, and sometimes the AB's and other white Prison Gangs.

"What I find most tragic is the inability of the mainstream media to pay more attention to this problem. It seems that if White people are not involved, no one cares a hoot what race kills or butchers the other."

Well it has been said that most white gangs operate for and under the mexicans on the streets. I believe its the Nazi Low Riders or some click in Whitier and Inland Empire. And what white gangs have beef with black gangs in the inner city? lol So until the 60's strike again in Westwood you're right.......you may be the only one who cares! I don't.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 9th, 2004, 11:37 pm

Read my full rebuttal, further down this page...
Last edited by TheReal on February 12th, 2004, 9:14 am, edited 10 times in total.

Anonymous20

Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Anonymous20 » February 10th, 2004, 12:47 am

Man when did you write that book?!?!

I wanted to respond, agree and/or disagree but it was so long, i'd rather read other post and play Yahoo Spades. LOL

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wattscrackin » February 10th, 2004, 1:50 am

lolllllllll i thought i wuz trippin when i saw that shit earlier, dammnnnnn i didnt know people had that kinda patience....

Anonymous20

Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Anonymous20 » February 10th, 2004, 2:08 am

wattscrackin wrote:lolllllllll i thought i wuz trippin when i saw that stuff earlier, dammnnnnn i didnt know people had that kinda patience....
With my low azz dial-up connection it froze the first time I opened it up! lol

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 10th, 2004, 5:08 pm

Lol.. and he calls me upset. Oh brother. lololol. Hey The Real, post your book info so I can read it and figure out your actual position. I'll get to dealing with your last post when I have the time. Too busy right now working and I'm doing good tonight with some homies. Peace.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Young Nile » February 10th, 2004, 6:47 pm

Hey Representado,

You sound like a straight idiot. Every time you post something it makes you sound more ignorant. I know the more knowledgeable hispanics on the site just start shaking there head.

Do your self a favor dont post anything else regarding to this topic untill you read some more (if any) books...................

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by anonymousman » February 10th, 2004, 10:58 pm

ive never been locked up in the pen before but i know a lot of surenos that tell me the reason they got funk with blacks down in LA is because in the pen they back up the nortenos which is the northern hispanics and surenos are the southern hispanics up here its all about northern cali vs southern cali's hispanics, i live in the central valley 209 modesto nortenos have no respect for southern cali mexicans and not all of them but a lot of the youngsters talk like they are black to me it sounds like its a prison thing that came down to the streets. nortenos formed the nuestra familia and allied with the bg family to protect them selves from la eme. its just some shit homies tell me when they start drinking but it sounds credible.

Anonymous20

Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by Anonymous20 » February 11th, 2004, 1:21 am

The Sureno's are about numbers and empowerment. They fought hard to get the 18's streets to side with them and they convinced the Fresno Bulldogs to turn Sureno as well. So whoever wants to believe thats the reason Sureno's don't like blacks, oh well---they'll fall for anything.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 6:46 am

wcrockets wrote:Lol.. and he calls me upset. Oh brother. lololol. Hey The Real, post your book info so I can read it and figure out your actual position. I'll get to dealing with your last post when I have the time. Too busy right now working and I'm doing good tonight with some homies. Peace.
*The fact that I had written a long post, doesnt' necessarily equate me as a person that's upset, or "bent out of shape." To be quite honest with you, I could've came more raw and fiery, based on the fact that you questioned my integrity, and motives of why I do, what I do, however I restrained myself, and dealt with each of your positions accordingly (in a tone down fashion): trust me, there was a lot I could've said, and wanted to say, but didn't.

In other words, your false assertions and presumptions, in thinking that you have me pretty much figured out, which led you to express certain sophist conclusions about me, and your lengthy post over all, is what prompted me to dissect each of your remarks, in a piecemeal fashion-because one thing I will do, is defend myself against personal attacks, if my character is being besmirched! Ya dig?

P.S.
I looked over my post (the last one that I'd posted, and the one that you're referring to), and noticed it didn't catch my whole rebuttal, so what I've done, is revised the post-adding the conclusion onto my rebuttal post. This way, folks can gain a clearer understanding of the information, instead of it ending abruptly, as was the case previously!

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by GIBBY » February 11th, 2004, 10:59 am

kevmac wrote:The Sureno's are about numbers and empowerment. They fought hard to get the 18's streets to side with them and they convinced the Fresno Bulldogs to turn Sureno as well. So whoever wants to believe thats the reason Sureno's don't like blacks, oh well---they'll fall for anything.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
FALSE INFO

XV3 has always been Surenos man. What the hell are you talking about???Can you please explain in any type of detail how "Surenos" fought hard to get 18 to side with "them" when 18 were already down for the SUR from the getgo in 1969??? Fresno Bulldogs claim Bulldog Nation Centro Califas. The aint Surenos. Paz

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 11:00 am

Read my full rebuttal on the next page, chopped up into two sections! It's a rebuttal to Wcrockets!
Last edited by TheReal on February 12th, 2004, 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 11:01 am

Okay, here's my whole entire post/rebuttal, that I had posted to Wcrockets. For some reason, the system wouldn't take in my whole post, so I had to maneuver, and go through loops, in order to post everything, in its' entirety.

I know it's a little long, but I did what I had to do, and don't apologize for it:


[quote="TheReal"]Wcrockets, COME FORTH!!!
________________________________________________________________________________
-This is a reply for The Real:

*No, I have many viewpoints, which leads back to one point, or center.

Me: I'm sure you do but the aggregate of your posts leaves one looking at the core of a linear one-dimensional argument based on the "epiphany" you seem to have had regarding your whole "mexicans are the new nazis" argument.

The Real: You may label as much as you like, the arguments that I put forth as "linear" or "one-dimensional", however, it still doesn't take away from the core stance of my position, which is that blacks have a right to defend themselves from within their community, or without. Let's even take it one step further: forget about the community, or neighborhood aspect of the discussion, the fact that blacks have a right to form an organization that will defend them from physical attacks, within or without their race, isn't something that is morally decadent, rather something that is based on common sense, as well as God given right!

Again, many of you folks are attempting to paint me in a corner, as if I'm asking for armed revolution, or an insurrection, whereas I'm only asking for simple DEFENSIVE MEASURES UPON THOSE THAT PREY UPON OUR COMMUNITY-as well as defend ourselves (particularly in the L.A., or southwestern portions of the U.S.), against those white supremacists and Mexican racists, that wish to, over a period of degrees, ANNIHILATE AND CONTAIN THE BLACK PRESENCE!!!

I'm not advocating irrational offense, rather defense!! Hell, in another post, as it related to bloods and crips uniting with one another against Mexican gangs, I'd stated that it was a waste of time, but instead, black gangs and black people in general, ought to concern themselves with building up their own communities, or families-and only strike back in a violent manner, IF ATTACKED!!!

What's so radical, or unnatural about that position? You mean to tell me that you have a problem with someone using a gun, or any other type of weaponry, against an individual, or individuals that wish to seek them and their family, inevitable physical harm? Or why is it that when I advocate black unity, against Mexican gang bangers and White supremacists, I'm now the bad guy, when the folks who are committing these egregious acts are running free of scornful judgment.

As I said before, if it were just a simple gang rivalry that was going on between Blacks and Mexicans, similar to gang warfare between Blacks and Blacks, or Mexicans and Mexicans, that would be one thing! HOWEVER!!! The gang warfare that is being hatched by Mexican gangs upon the black community has another texture to it!!! In many ways, it is politically orchestrated from the top, and definitely has a racialist, social agenda attached to it: BLACK EXTERMINATION AND CONTAINMENT!!!!!

So this "epiphany" you mock of mine, is based on observable data, and real life experiences that can be easily retrieved if folks are honest with themselves, and see the reality for what it is. In the end, Mexicans are collectively the enemy of black folks, and collectively (not individually) mean black folks NO DAMN GOOD, JUST LIKE THEIR WHITE RACIST BRETHREN, in all areas of life!!

________________________________________________________________________________
-*If you're claiming that I'm a flamethrower for my point of view, THEN YOU'RE RIGHT! There's no shame in my game, as it relates to the information I'm putting forth. However, if you're saying that I have an agenda that I'm trying to put forth, THEN YOU'RE WRONG!!! I address the issues that are of interest to me: nothing more, nothing less! And you know what? I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ATTACH MYSELF ONTO AN ARGUMENT THAT I FEEL IS INTERESTING, OR THAT PIQUES MY CURIOSITY!

ME: Yes you do but it is shallow and isolates people from you to shove your opinion down everyone's throat in such a one-dimensional manner.

TheReal: You can attack my valid arguments as someone who's shoving their "opinion down everyone's throat in such a one-dimensional manner", nevertheless, I'm not hear to cater to anyone's temperament, or disposition, in regards to my style of conversing, or dialogue.



-You would be taken much more seriously if you were able to converse on many subjects in a non one dimensional manner showing other races the respect you expect.

TheReal: That's your interpretation of the matter. There have been topics, such as the topic dealing with cholo dress, and the origins of L.A. gang style, over on that Pachuca/cholo board, where I present a cogent argument, displaying the salient arguments to back up my points. So this "one-dimensional manner" you attach onto my positions, and/or style of argumentation doesn't move me, nor sway me in the least! Why? Because I will continue to be "one-dimensional" and speak in the "manner" I've set out on, due to me believing wholeheartedly in the information that I'm espousing, and will not change, or withdraw from my positions, BECAUSE OF FOLKS FEELINGS GETTING HURT!! Me, I'm concerned about my own people, the crisis they have to face, more so than to concern myself with such pettiness.

You seem to be upset over the fact that I'm sticking to my guns, and that I have a dogged determination and am steadfast, in my attacks upon racist whites and Mexicans, and how I don't give any ground, for any other personal belief. In other words, you're wasting your precious time, if you feel that I'm going to think otherwise, and espouse anything different than what I've been espousing!!!

Truth of the matter is, 60% of all Mexicans are racist against Black people, and those that are in gangs, particularly in certain locales, have as a broader agenda, similar to their white supremacist devil brethren: the containment and extermination of the black population. As a matter of fact, a Mexican doesn't have to be in a gang, or an organized syndicate, to feel this way, or support such a plan of action.

Again, my steadfast approach, and destroying of attempts to pacify my stance, or thwart my rage isn't going to work. Folks can say all they want to, about me being "one-dimensional", but I don't mind!! In a lot of ways that's a compliment, because it shows my dedication, and single focus on taking it to the enemy. The fact of the matter is, the enemy is "one-dimensional" in their racism, and attempts to annihilate and contain the black community, likewise, I will continue to be "one-dimensional" in my approach, when it comes to taking down those devils.

And as far as respect, it's not all that deep. You see, I have good street etiquette, and will not unleash on anyone, if not provoked. I'm a peaceful person, who doesn't look for trouble, but that doesn't mean that I will not deal with trouble, once it's delivered my way. However, if you're talking about my attacks on this site, well-I FEEL THAT IT'S HIGHLY APPROPRIATE!!! Why? Because this topic, and the subsequent discussions at hand, calls for my rage!! You have Mexican cats on this board, deceiving and pulling the wool over the eyes of black folks on this site, in regards to the tensions between Black and Mexican gangs. You have Mexicans on this site implying that the war, in its' sum total, is just a mere example of the normal run of the mill gang rivalries, with few racial components: BUT I KNOW BETTER, AND THEY KNOW I KNOW BETTER THAN TO BE DECEIVED BY SUCH B.S. RANTINGS!!! These fools don't want to drop the real deal, and the deeper meaning, as well as social significance of their war with black folks, which is predicated upon pure "d" hatred!!

Oh sure, I'm not dismissing the average, run of the mill rivalries that occur within the gang structure, but with Mexicans and their warfare against Blacks-it is much more sinister and sophisticated!! The funny thing is, is that Blacks don't have a clue about the intensity of hatred and bigotry, that is rampant throughout the Mexican community, which is fueling much of Mexicans gangs attacks upon blacks. Blacks in L.A. have to realize that many Mexican gang members don't care if you're a Black person in a gang, just the fact that you're Black, and especially a male, is enough of a greenlight to attack! Many folks, including Black folks, would like to portray Mexicans as being oppressed as Blacks, in the same struggle as Blacks, to where you even have Blacks who will even defend Mexicans with their life-even if aaaaaaaaallll their experiences with Mexicans were negative, or at the least the majority-because they (Blacks) feel that Mexicans are their lost cousins, or brothers, in need of enlightenment, which is foolishness!!

Mexican racists, just like their White racist brethren may need some enlightenment, and to wake the hell up in other areas, but the hatred that they have for the Black race, isn't a product of them (particularly Mexicans) needing to awakened concerning the evils of the system, and how they are pitted against their Black "brothers" by the white man, rather, they are (Mexicans) a product of unjustified hatred, just like their white supremacist brethren. The Spanish blood that flows through their veins, is the same blood that enacted genocide upon the indigenous populations, as well as the enslavement of the African population! The Spanish pacified and used trickery, to dominate and destroy the indigenous civilizations throughout the Americas, and now their seed is doing the same thing, in many ways with the black population of the Americas!! Only now, the predominant ones amongst the latino/Hispanic variety with the most genocidal and devilish designs, are those of the mestizo variety, SUCH AS MEXICANS!!!!

This mestizo variety, isn't an anamoly. Remember, you have white folks in this country, with native-american ancestry that are racist, and have been members of the klan, and whatnot; which basically means that a fool south of the border-albeit many of them may have more indigenous blood than their U.S. counterparts-just like their white brethren in the U.S. with native American ancestry, are capable of the same horrendous acts of racism and pillage!

No, I view Mexicans and White folks, and the racists amongst them, as one and the same, and I refuse to get "jolly" and "respectful" with devils, even though they come in as meek sheep, discussing this particular issue, when they damn well know that amidst their population, in regards to this subject that-EVERYTHING THAT I'VE STATED IN MY PREVIOUS POSTS ON THIS SITE, IS 100% CORRECT!!!! The only crime that I committed was 1) me telling black folks to defend themselves against predators within and without their community; and 2) I wasn't supposed to say, what I'm saying, in total; and finally 3) THAT MEXICAN RACIST ARE THE NEW WHITE SUPREMACISTS, AND SHOULD BE VIEWED SIMILARLY AS YOU WOULD WHITE RACIST DEVILS-BECAUSE THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME!!!

These Mexican devils on this site know I'm speaking the truth, but again, they want to contain, and pacify Black folks natural, god-given rage, that they deserve to have, in regards to the genocidal designs that their people have for the black community. So I'm sorry, based on my belief of the matter, if you thought I was going to just coddle and baby this topic, when the reality is, there are real consequences and ramifications that are occurring throughout the L.A. area, and the southwest, for the Black community! You see, I don't give a damn who has the most numbers, because all in all, BLACKS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN OUTNUMBERED AND OUTGUNNED!! What I am worried about however, is black folks defending themselves, against the coming storm, that has already erupted, but many don't realize it yet!!!

To all the blacks: the war between Black and Mexican gangs are the opening salvo of genocide, extermination and containment, that Mexicans are enforcing, in order to weaken, destroy, and put under one's feet in subjection, the black community!!! This was done by white folks in the past, in the form of kkk, and other white racist organizations, and likewise, with this new crop of racist devils, it's being done once again! Only this time, it's being done by a so-called "minority" group, which adds further confusion to the mix, because many black folks believe, as well as want to believe that just because Mexicans are classified as a minority, that this automatically makes them natural allies of the black community, which is bogus. Truth be told, Mexicans were considered white until the early 70's!!! Part of the reason why their racial classification was changed from white to minority status, was so that they could benefit from the new affirmative action program that was instituted in the early 70's-spearheaded by black folks, for black folks, and greenlighted by the Nixon administration.

-In other words, valuing people higher than simply harranging them with your mission.

TheReal: I am "harranging(sic)" certain folks with my "mission", because that's what many of those fools deserve! They know damn well that their people collectively (not individually) mean black folks no damn good, whatsoever-in all areas!! On this board, dealing with this very same topic, those fools (Mexicans) are trying to but blinders on black folks eyes, in regards to the severity of their own people's hatred and angst,, against the black community, by pretending it to be simple gang rivalry!! Hell, you've even had Mexicans on this site who said that the majority of Mexicans hate black people, or that the rivalry between Black and Mexican gangs will never dissipate!

Come on man, you even have folks on this board who even admitted that Mexicans allow White folks into their gangs and organizations, but will hardly allow blacks folks in, and grant it, they were discussing this in a respectful manner-true enough. However, I DON'T TAKE SUCH STATEMENTS THAT LIGHTLY, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT'S AN ATTACK AGAINST MY OWN PEOPLE!!! The fact of the matter is, the Black folks on this site, in dialoging with these Mexican cats, are conversing with folks who tolerate racism amongst their ranks, and annihilation and containment of the black community, as well as allying with white supremacists, who want no more than to excise blacks from off the face of this planet, as well as have an unspoken alliance with their white brethren, because they are essentially the same people-despite their interfamily squabbles. And the funny thing about it is, after I, or others began to attack the hypocrisy, and wolf in sheep's clothing approach and stance, of these Mexican devils, THEN WE'RE ATTACKED FOR BEING UNENLIGHTENED!!! I don't need to be enlightened from a devil who tolerates his own people discriminating against mine, and befriends white supremacists with genocidal designs! (The fact that mexicans do ally, and can ally white racist folks, tells me a lot about mexicans and their bigotry.) Neither will I coddle such devils!! What I will do is ATTACK THOSE DEVILS, AND EXPOSE THOSE SNAKES FOR WHOM THEY ARE, AND WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT!!!


-*Hell yeah I can admit to being wrong in certain areas! Did I not say that I ultimately wish for you and other folks to be right, and me wrong, for the cause of greater humanity? Just read over all my information!

Me: A martyr's position is being taken here.

TheReal: No, a truthful position is being taken here, much to your dislike, and seeing as how life is complex, so am I as a human being, to where you're not able to contain and sequester me, in some type of ideological box that you've concocted for me. Here you are accusing me of one-dimensional logic, whereas that is exactly what you are performing, when you refuse to want to believe, that I desire for you folks to be right, instead of where I'm coming from, and am proposing. You see, to want to believe that I'm a one-dimensional, banal militant, possessed with a myopic vision, only will make it easier in your estimation, in attacking my arguments-BECAUSE YOU PRESUME THAT YOU WOULD HAVE ME FIGURED OUT, BASED ON WHAT YOU'VE READ, EXPERIENCED, OR HAVE BEEN TAUGHT ABOUT CONCERNING "MILITANTS" OR "REVOLUTIONARIES" FROM THE PAST!!

But you see, your tactics are not going to work with me, because with folks like you-I'VE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT!! In other words, I know who I am, and what I believe, and how I feel about certain matters, and any false reading by you, into any of my true intents, will indeed be frivolous! In other words, I meant what I said, and said what I meant, and presently mean!

-The only problem is that you aren't one.

TheReal: I never claimed to be a martyr, and just because you claim that I'm not one, DOESN'T MEAN I'M NOT!! I realize that you're trying to minimalize my statements, based on your preconceived perceptions of where I'm coming from, but the truth of the matter, your attempts are like water ballons being thrown up against a brick wall! Get the picture?

-You just think you are.

TheReal: Trust me potnuh, IT AIN'T ALL THAT DEEP!!! What it is, is that you wish that I thought that way, more so than what I desire to be-in regards to being a martyr-because you want the satisfaction of thinking that you know me, or why I do, what I do. Truth of the matter is, this little display of yours, in regards to your petty psycho-analysis of me, my character, and what makes me tick, only highlights your arrogance and possible haughty proclivities that you possess, in thinking you know what the HELL you're talking about!

I'm sorry, but your attempts at "reading" a brotha is weak and soft like ice-cream, on a hot summer day: just give it up, and stick to the issues!! (I can tell that you've discussed, or contemplated this issue before, or at the very least, heard this issue discussed previously, to where you honestly feel that you have your finger on the pulse of my modus operandi. Interestingly enough, it's not so much that I feel that I'm a martyr, rather, you probably feel that way inwardly: truth be told.)

-But that's good you can admit to being wrong. Any wise person will including myself.

TheReal: I'm glad you think that you're "wise"!

_____________________________________________________________
-*Part of my solution will only entail violence, if needs be. In other words, I believe in forming defense militias against predators within the black race, as well as without, similar to the black panthers. The black panthers formed their organization in order to deal with police brutality, similar to the deacons for defense in Louisiana-even though they focused mainly on white supremacists in general. I'm shocked that you folks haven't figured that out yet! I'm not advocating violence for the sake of violence, rather for self-defense purposes!! The fact that you have mexican gangs, along with their white allies, making war on black gangs and people in general, that is outside the framework of normal gang confrontations, but are leaking into the areas of racism and genocide, only compels me to argue for unity amongst black gangs: not in necessarily giving up their identity or space, but rather a unity of purpose against mexican gangs, who seek their annihilation SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK! Remember, many blacks view mexican gangs and them fighting blacks, as just simple gang warfare, whereas mexicans that are fighting black folks, SEE IT AS A RACE WAR! So why am I the bad guy, for asking black gangs to reassess their enemy (mexican gang members, in this instance), and view them as a group of folks hell-bent on genocidal purposes, with the philosophy of "OPEN SEASON ON ALL N!GGERS!" Why am I wrong for telling black folks, that when you deal with such a beast, that you should decapitate that devil, and hang them on a cross as a symbol to any devil that tries to cause genocide and containment of their people!!

Me: Well allow me to retort with my own long informed post.. lol. Most educated people in the USA, that I have talked too feel the types of organization(s) which, if I am hearing you correctly, you are expousing for people to create and join to "defend the Black race" would simply be filled by some and most likely just be the graduation to the next level for the unrepentant gangmember not already locked down and caught up in prison gang culture. The truth is The Real is that the black population's not going along for that ride. They aren't going to polarize their race by turning their neighborhoods into Black only armed enclaves conferring their will and future into the hands of a few radical extremists pretty much ensuring near complete isolation and poverty for their people.

TheReal: Regardless of what most "educated people" believe, in regards to the organizational structure that I'm purporting, it still doesn't mean that what I'm espousing IS WRONG!! You see, it doesn't matter whether or not black folks won't go "along for that ride,"!! The fact of the matter is, the majority of black folks didn't participate in the civil rights movement, nor did they support the black panthers, or any other organization similar to its' kind, but that doesn't make the impact of these movements, or organizations obsolete!

Truth be told, what I'm proposing really doesn't take the overwhelming numbers of the black community, only a few. Not only that, regardless of what some stuffy educated black folks, living in ivory towers are wanting to believe, the racist devil Mexicans and their White supremacist brethren in the coming years, will add more fuel to the fire that I'm predicting, that will eventually manifest itself!! There's a present generation that's growing up, of all races, that can care less about the civil rights movement, segregation, etc,. who are getting their info from their contemporaries, racist old-heads, and the internet. This younger generation of racist Mexicans and White folks, are latent dragons, that are awaiting to unleash their racist agendas upon the black population, not only in the form of violence, but in other areas of life, rather it be job discrimination, etc. And the fact that the majority of black folks aren't down for my proposals don't mean anything due to the fact, that the situation will increasingly become worsened, to where most of them will have no other choice.

Mexicans, whom Black people want to like, will show them their azz so freely, in the coming years, because of their majority status, that it will compel many blacks (and it's beginning to happen already), that they don't have a friend in Mexicans, and that Mexicans are no better than White supremacists! I don't have to really espouse anything, MEXICANS WILL INDEED SHOW, AND ARE SHOWING, JUST HOW RABIDLY DEVILISH AND RACIST THEY ARE!!! It is Mexicans that are convincing Black folks that they are indeed the collective enemies of black people! (The reason why I keep stressing the word "collective" is because many Black folks feel that Mexicans are "collectively" down with black folks, and will defend Mexicans with their dying breath.) It is Mexicans, by their very racist selves, who will convince Black people, that what I'm saying is the truth: just let the bodies and other forms of discrimination, just keep stacking up!!! All I am doing is highlighting and sounding the alarm!

-Honestly your "solution" would only lead to more Black heartache and suffering one hundred fold to today's. Especially after the backlash happened.

TheReal: What "heartache" and what "backlash"??!! The only "backlash" that occurred for blacks, was when the government, in the form of the FBI, and CIA, tried to take down, and successfully took down, many black organizations, whether they were peaceful, or considered militant!!! What I do know is that peace-niks like Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who wasn't advocating self-defense, nor violence, was constantly subjected to by attacks from J. Edgar Hoover, and his co-intelpro program, in an effort to smear and destroy King, and the Civil Rights movement. Here King was, in the eyes of many, a "good Negro" who didn't advocate violence, being subjected to alienation, ridicule, and eventual isolation, particularly during the latter years of his life, when he attacked the Vietnam War, and when he called for a distribution of this nation's wealth-the same thing you are predicting for black folk, who would dare to defend themselves.

Many white liberal folk, who fought for black folks in regards to voting, interstate travel, and public accommodations, began to abandon the movement, because of these sentiments from King, as well as the emerging black power movement. King, during his last days on earth, was thought of lowly amongst the white population, and viewed as a social pariah, and received "heartache" because of it, yet he taught non-violence, and was a pacifist-whose stances didn't do him any good in the long run, for he was still the victim of violence. The same with those radical and militant organizations such as the panthers, and others, during the mid to late 60's and early 70's! They were hated and attacked by the government's cointelpro system, just as ferociously as King, AND KING WAS PREACHING NON-VIOLENCE!!

Hell, before King died, J. Edgar Hoover released a FBI memo, discussing how they must "prevent the rise of a black messiah", and neutralize any efforts for one to crop up, by any means necessary. And the people that were listed in this document, with the exception of Stokely Carmichael, either preached non-violence, or black folks doing for self-nothing more, nothing less. I on the other hand, am only discussing black folks arming themselves, with the mission of the black panthers (and the brown berets, now that I think about it; a group who patterned themselves after the panthers), in defending the black community from encroachers who are willing to extinguish black life, because they feel that "niggers" belong either hanging from a tree, or in Africa, or some Mexican racist, who feels that any type of discrimination and wrongdoing by the hands of Mexicans, onto Blacks, can never be wrong, due to the fact that they feel-for many reasons too long to go into right here-that this land is rightfully theirs, and that blacks don't belong here anyway. So regardless of the heartach you predict for black folks who take up arms to defend themselves, it would be there anyway, even if they were non-violent, or silent, in the face of oppression!

(Interestingly enough, both White and Mexican racists feel this way, only they espouse different interpretations for the same motives and agenda.)

I've even stated previously that Black gang members don't have to lose their organizational identity, nor territory with other Black sets, rather I'm telling Black gangs to revamp their mission somewhat, and reassess Mexican gangs, and many of the motives behind why they are warring with black gangs-least of which, is their hatred for black people, which is part and parcel the racism and hatred that 60% of the Mexican population harbors for the Black community! The fact that I'm saying that blacks ought to do to Mexican gang members, what many of them are doing to Black gang members, is what got folks like you in a tizzy!!

Blacks have a right to defend themselves against the predators within and without their community, whether they belong to a gang, or not!!

-The synergy you are looking for, in my opinion, would simply create a rerun of what did not already work in the 60's (with few exceptions) resulting in yet another generation of young people's lives being greatly harmed.

TheReal: I agree that great harm was caused, much of it was self-inflicted, whereas the other forms of retribution was ingrained in what the system had invoked on these organizations. Geronimo Pratt, Angela Davis, and others, were revolutionaries, who stood up against the system-were constantly being targeted and harassed unjustifiably! When it comes to struggle, there are always going to be casualties of war, but as I said earlier, the solution that I'm proposing for blacks in L.A., is to arm themselves against Mexican gangmembers, and their white supremacist brethren, while preparing for the coming storm.

The fact that "another generation of young people's lives" will be "greatly harmed", isn't telling me much, BECAUSE IT WAS, AND IS STILL BEING GREATLY HARMED, EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING!!! Just look at all those martyrs of the Civil Rights movement, who preached non-violence, and were pacifist, yet were killed, lynched, shot, burned, etc. You telling me that just because the end results of fighting will be negative for the individual, or individuals, that this is good enough reason, to lay back, AND CONSTANTLY RECEIVE THE SAME OLD SHAFT???

Fact of the matter is, despite the trauma that such movements as the panthers had produced, their very existence was in the end, more beneficial for the black collective, in regards to certain legislation being passed, as well as programs like Job Corps, free-lunch programs, Ceta, etc., than if they never, ever existed. Sure they weren't perfect, and made plenty of mistakes, but I do know also that the FBI and other factions, were causing dissent within their ranks, by planting and mailing false correspondence to rival chapters, and planting spies and agent provocateurs in their ranks, in order to cause all types of division and confusion. If you were to couple that drama, with the drama of just being Black in this country, and the day to day struggles that this feat entails: THEN I CAN ONLY IMAGINE THAT THERE WILL BE A "generation of young people's lives being harmed".

Nevertheless, the struggle must continue!!! How about those blacks throughout the history of this country, who defended themselves during the bloody riots of 1918, Rosewood, Greenwood Oklahoma, The Draft Riots of New York, and other similar riots, against white racists? (Mexicans always bytch and moan about the zoot-suit riots, however that one riot doesn't compare to any of the damages inflicted during these riots, upon the black population.) Don't you think their stance to defend themselves, against the devils that invaded their community was a righteous one, even if they were outnumbered? Or was it because they took up arms against white folks, that they are somehow wrong! As a result of these riots, many black folks homes were destroyed, so were whole communities, BUT WHAT WERE BLACK FOLKS TO DO-SIT BACK AND LET IT HAPPEN, WITHOUT LIFTING A FINGER!!! These white racist devils were going to attack and kill them anyway, SO BLACK FOLKS MAY AS WELL HAVE PICKED UP THE GUN, AND TAKEN IT TO THE ENEMY, REGARDLESS OF THE EVENTUAL OUTCOME!!

What folks like you, and others, want to do, is pacify Black folks, and have them suffer peacefully, reminding them of the consequences of their actions, if they were to ever grow a spine, and have a love and appreciation of their own peoplehood, to where they stand up, and defend themselves against the oncoming onslaught!

-(Most of the hardened charismatic gangmembers of the sixties, for example, that formed and joined these types of organizations ended dead, in prison, or changed and worked for or are working within the system to bring change).

TheReal: Truth be told, many of those folks may have been involved in gangs, or were gang members that became enlightened, but regardless of their gang status-DO SOME RESEARCH!!!! I'm not talking about gangmembers per se, when I talk about the martyrs of the past, RATHER FOLKS WHO WERE BONAFIDE REVOLUTIONARIES!!!!! The black panthers weren't a gang, in the sense that you're labeling them as, nor were many of the black radical organizations from back in the day. Now I am familiar with the Conservative Vice-Lords, that was a gang trying to rehabilitate themselves, as well as their community.

The motives of these types of organizations/gangs were noble, and any causes that led to their eventual demise, must be studied, and in turn be re-routed for positive ends. In the end, we must be much starter and wiser, and learn from the mistakes of why these movements failed, as opposed to saying that these movements didn't have any validity-and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

-The vast majority of the hyper-idealistic movements of the previous century went bad as well. The cause was not the due to a lack of motivation on the part of the movement's members but rather was doomed from the start as the hyper-idealistic philosophical premises don't translate into real world reality well

TheReal: Again, BLACK PEOPLE DEFENDING THEMSELVES AGAINST PREDATORS FROM WITHIN THEIR COMMUNITY, AS WELL AS WITHOUT, MAY APPEAR TO BE "hyper-idealistic philosophical premises", but based on the reality of what blacks in L.A. presently have to face "in the real world" of "reality", I feel that my stance is more than appropriate! Oh no, my position will translate very well into the "real world reality", because the "real world" is the "world", I'm trying to effect. The fact that I don't like the present "real world reality", and how things are, is what makes me go to "radical" solutions, that appear to be "hyper-idealistic philosophical premises", because folks want to maintain that status quo.

I'm not here to be a revolutionary, martyr, or militant, but I am here to attack the lies and b.s. and the pacifying of the black community, in regards to the present conflict between Black and Mexicans, as well as the genocidal designs that both racist Mexicans and racist Whites have for the Black community, including the unspoken alliances that these two groups have for one another!

-(ie Take the "Communism" experiments for example). Along the way they did great harm to a great many people. The ones that did work (ie Cuba) resulted in persecution and economic decline. The reason is because after the revolution, there was not a transfer of power back to the people. If there had been, the situation that exists today (ie sanctions) would not exist today.

TheReal: Man, to hell with Communism!! I'm not a communist, nor an atheist, or any other type of fool you think me to be. Again, your arguments are geared towards a leftist militant, or radical, whose sole purpose is to destroy the "system" or any system!! As I said before, my aim is to unite Black gang members in their war with Mexican gangs, and have them realize that Mexican gangs work in the same spirit of their white supremacist brethren, and are imbued with the klu-klux spirit of annihilation and containment of the black community, with the minor rumblings of discrimination at the hands of these two groups, in other areas!

ME: People who are good at tearing things down often are not the best people to build things back up differently afterwards. And history shows that despots who run revolutions don't want to relenquish power voluntarily. In the revolutionary philosophies you appear to be expousing, in my opinion, there never will be a peaceful transfer of power back to the people by the revolutionaries. That is simply idealism which WILL NOT transfer into reality afterwards.

TheReal: Man, I thought you more intelligent than what you're presently displaying. You sound like every right-wing, Christian fundamentalist ideologue, who argues on behalf of the status quo. Every system, or belief, has their trump card that they will use, in order to cause dissension, or calm, and even stifle dissension. When it comes to right-wing and/or Christian fundamentalists folks, they're good at trying to silence your initiative for positive change, or revolutionary action, but will find under every nook and cranny, a justification for their own agendas to be enforced-EVEN IF IT WERE A CALL TO ARMS!!!!

I can go further with this (and probably will in a rebuttal), but the fact that you used "communism" and implied that my designs were for some type of balkanization, and dictatorial rule over the black community, makes you appear to be highly foolish!!! I'm not attempting to form an organization, nor be a dictator of a balkanized region, nor tear down any system! WHAT I'M PURPORTING IS ARMED RESISTANCE AGAINST DEVILS THAT WOULD WISH TO TAKE THE LIVES OF BLACK FOLKS, WITHIN AND WITHOUT THE BLACK COMMUNITY, WITH THE "REVOLUTIONARY" STANCE OF DECLARING MEXICANS, THE ETERNAL AND COLLECTIVE ENEMIES OF BLACK PEOPLE-SEEING AS HOW THE MAJORITY OF THEM ARE RACISTS AND HATE BLACK PEOPLE!!! Also I'm warning Black folks on how Mexicans play both sides of the fence, when it comes to their oppression-either real or imagined-and how they use it a weapon, to tug on the hearts of black folks, one minute, and curse, as well as spit on them, the next.

And as far as tearing down systems, and what have you-WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT KING AND OTHER BLACK FOLKS WERE ATTEMPTING TO DO DURING THE 60'S????? At the time when they were going about their work, you had white Christians who excoriated King for his beliefs (still to this day), saying that his views on how to change things would inevitably rip society (particularly southern) apart. J. Edgar Hoover even stated that King was the greatest threat to national security, and that he was the world's greatest liar, and all King wanted for blacks, was for them to have the right to vote, travel freely, economic justice, etc. Read some of his later speeches, and you'll see that this cat is far more leftist (actually I'm moderate across the board), and far more radical in his vision than myself, when it comes to societal restructuring!!!

Oh sure, folks in hindsight can say that a person like King's goal and vision for the world was positive, therefore it produced positive results-but it wasn't that way in the beginning!! In the beginning, he had the singular focus in wanting freedom for black people, which resulted into certain actions, or tactics, that wasn't appreciated by certain white clergy, whites in general, and conservative blacks, but he persevered nonetheless. Likewise (not that I'm comparing myself to King) my singular focus is on blacks, not to revamp the system, or cause a revolution, rather for black folks to DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST RACIST MEXICAN GANGS, AND THEIR ALLIES, WHO IN THE COMING YEARS, WISH TO ANNIHILATE AND CONTAIN THE GREATER BLACK COMMUNITY!

I'm also warning black gangs that the rivalry and warfare that they have with Mexican gangs, isn't based on the average run of the mill squabbles, that gangs do engage in for, rather that Mexican gangs have an underlying motive from on top, as well as below-along with their white brethren-to exterminate and contain the black presence from L.A., and throughout the southwest, and eventually the U.S. Also I'm informing black folks in L.A. that the war that Blacks are having with Mexican gangs, are the opening salvo of the war, that many of their people (mexican) have been discussing in their homes, with their friends, with their allies, and on the net: THE TAKEOVER AND RECLAIMING OF THE SOUTHWEST! Moreover, even though you may have "cool" Mexicans, or Mexicans with Black homies, many of them feel that the extermination of black gang members and black citizenry wantonly (particularly the males), is a necessary evil that is needed, in order for the struggle to be realized!


-An alternative view would be for members to develop a social consience, of course, but without attempting to copy the failed patterns of the past.

TheReal: I agree with everything you've just stated, but two things 1) when you ask for "members to develop a social consience(sic)" I would support that, only if you're referring to black folks only. There's still a lot of issues that black folks must deal with first amongst themselves, before they take their limited resources elsewhere, and try to bless a supposed "minority" group!! In the end, the majority of Mexicans (not all) are racist, and collectively-aren't to be trusted!!! Many of them will tolerate racism, and all sorts of evil by their own people, against the Black community, because deep down, they latently agree with the racism. 2) I feel that you can call the Black community to arms, and still "not copy the failed patterns of the past."

Hell, Christians don't have a rosy past! Many Christians of the past, and today, were, and are murderers, committed genocide, practiced slavery, racist and all other types of social ills-nevertheless, you and other folks are calling people to become Christians, despite the mistakes that were caused by your people, in the past. Likewise, as stated before, I can call Black folks to arms, while not making the same mistakes of the past from folks who called out Black people similarly, just like you can call out folks to serve Christ, yet not make the same mistakes of the past, or perform those horrendous acts that were justified, under the banner of the cross, the name of Jesus, and the Bible!

-Perhaps, applying the idealism in a nonviolent way today and working with the existing systems might be a good place to start. Build families, educate politically, take back your spending and economic power from Wall Street, get the young people to put down the gun and pick up books. You could start with the Bible.

TheReal: I don't have any problem with most of what you're saying. As I stated before, you've misjudged me, as well as my motives, and are hell-bent to sequester me into an ideological box!! I'm not someone who has a problem with most of the agenda you've just proposed. Remember in my previous posts, I've stated how I wished my positions were wrong, and that folks like yours was right, as well as how I've even mentioned the fact that blacks ought to take care of our own house, which included our families and communities? The same posts where you dubiously accused my motives as someone trying to portray himself as a martyr???!!!

Again, I have no problem in what you've just outlined, but I can definitely walk and chew gum at the same time, and with my ability to execute such dexterity, I'm still not going to be blind to the threat of Mexican gangs, and their white allies, and what they ultimately have in store for the Black community! In other words, I can and will, utilize the nation building outline that you've suggested, because I believe in much of what you have to say in that regards, but understand, every nation, block, organization, community-needs a faction of folks, who will protect themselves from those outside and within the community, who will wantonly prey upon it, for God knows whatever reason.

It would be foolish for me to say that I'm going to get my house in order, while ignoring the devils outside my house, pouring gas around my house, and wiring it with explosives. Oh sure, my house on the inside may be beautiful, clean and in order-BUT IT WOULDN'T BE WORTH A DAMN, ONCE IT'S DESTROYED BY THE ACTIVITIES OF THOSE DEVILS OUTSIDE OF THE HOUSE!!! Black folks not killing one another, loving one another, restoring their families, will not necessitate Mexican gang members, and their allies, a reason to cease oppressing Black folk!!! (In many ways, it may even propel some of those devils even more so.)

Naw man, what is needed is non-violent social restructuring of the Black community, with the willingness to get violent and decapitate any devil within and without the black community, like racist Mexicans and their White allies, who wish to continually prey upon the black community wantonly!!!!!

Black folks never had the luxury to just sit down, build up their communities, without outside hostile forces coming in, trying to destroy what they've built!!! Look at examples like Rosewood, Greenwood, and other places throughout the South and the North, where White racists wreaked havoc and destruction down on blacks who had their families together, along with strong communities!! These white racist devils didn't want black folks around them (unless they were working for them, and under them), nor did they want black folks happy, living amongst themselves-so many Whites destroyed whole Black communities and neighborhoods. Likewise with Mexicans, just like their white brethren, they get off on "taking over" black domains, whether it be culture, or territory. They always brag about how they're taking over, and particularly-WHAT THEY'RE TAKING OVER!!!!!

Why brag about what you can take, that culturally belongs to another people?? But you know what, that's for another discussion, so let's proceed!!

What I'm saying in closing, is that blacks need to take care of two fronts. Why? Because there's no guarantee that when black folks do what you suggested in your outline, that it would lessen the war upon Blacks by Mexican gangs, nor the will of the Mexican population to destroy the black community. Neither will it provide the essential tools needed for black folks, such as employment opportunities, or access to capital, that black folks will sorely need, because of them being discriminated against by Mexicans and their racist White brethren.

-Your rage is understandable but that doesn't mean people, families, and organizations of people aren't getting over within the system and without the consequences of what your argument will bring on them.

TheReal: I'm not saying that "people, families, and organization of people aren't getting over within the system", however, it doesn't take away from any of my position!! I too am doing well within the "system", however I'm not blind to the simmering tensions that will eventually erupt in the twenty-first century, against the Black community, by racist Mexicans and their white allies, who are just dying to go to war with Black people!! Me, I'm just advocating Black folks to arms, in defense of themselves, as well as their fellow black person! You talk about "the consequences of what" my "argument will bring on them" (black folks), but no one ever talks about the "consequences" that are being hatched against "them (black folks)" right as we speak, as well as what is to come-in the future!!!

Truth be told, I don't have to say anything, nor espouse anything, and the war will eventually be brought to black folks doorsteps, not only in the line of violent action, but in other discriminatory practices against the black community!!! I'm just warning black folks ahead of time, and telling them to prepare themselves for the war that has already started, whether folks want to believe it or not!! As I said before, if nothing changes, the war between Black and Mexican gangs, are the opening salvo of the coming race war, and you best believe these racist devil Mexicans, will eventually bring in their allies (white supremacists) for the fun.

You see, Mexicans collectively want to war with Black people. Collectively they want to punk, contain, and have Blacks bow down to them: this is their sick, undisclosed fantasy! What blacks must do is wake up, and see the racist Mexicans for what they are, WHITE SUPREMACIST DEVILS, and treat them accordingly!!!

Remember, these racist devils, are what produce folks like me. They've been calling out the Black community for so long, and have wanted to, along with their white brethren, destroy and contain the Black community for so long, that God has decided to grant their wish for a war they claim to want, by raising up Black folks, walking in the spirit of rage, vengeance, and radical insurrectionists from the past like Nat Turner, Dessalines, Gabriel Prosser, Queen Nzinga, Malcolm X and others, who are willing to righteously engage them, in the name of self-defense!!!

There are plenty of Mexicans out there, who are feeling cocky because of their newfound numbers, who just pray for the day that blacks are exterminated and gotten rid of-the same as their ideological kinsmen in Nazi Germany, as it related to Jews!!! The fact that many of them have the numbers in L.A., and throughout the southwest, propels and emboldens many of them, to preach this message, in the same devilish spirit, as their white supremacist brethren. These people are the ones who want to disrupt and annihilate the Black presence, whereas I'm calling for black folks to defend their presence, and sense of peoplehood!


-It just means it takes more effort and time than the ones who have the luxury of the silver spoon in their mouth. I've done it this way myself and some of the benefits are: increased character and personal growth.

TheReal: Yeah, but at the same time, you're not black, nor can you understand the urgency of the dilemma, that I'm putting forth. You're still using arguments against me from way back, as it relates to revolutionaries (Are you middle aged, or elderly?), and them destroying the system, while promising liberation; as well as introducing the models of communism, ad infinitum...

This is the twenty-first century, therefore you're dealing with someone whose motives are aligned with twenty-first century paradigms. I'm no communist, nor am I seeking to create a kingdom, or organization, where I'm the leader. Neither am I trying to tear down any "system"-but will if the circumstances call for it. Notwithstanding, I am hell-bent on destroying the false assumptions out in L.A. and other areas, and expose the "new" racism, and enemy that Blacks have, not only on the horizon, but an enemy that was always there, just waiting to properly germinate and come to full-bloom.

-Honestly The Real, revolutionaries band together to tear things down but real men band together to build that which lasts.

TheReal: Again, you ought to use this argument on someone who's less sophisticated than myself, because in the end, as I said so before, so say I now again, YOU'RE MISREADING WHY I DO, WHAT I DO, AND ESPOUSE, WHAT I SAY!!! One of the reasons why I compel you to go to some other folks less sophisticated than myself with this argument, is because of your false premise THAT ALL REVOLUTIONARIES "band together to tear things down but real men band together to build that which lasts"!!!!! Would you say the same about the revolutionary patriots that fought in the AMERICAN REVOLUTION!!!! You do know that the same arguments you're touting, WAS TOUTED BY MANY OF YOUR COLONISTS (particulary torries) WHO WERE AGAINST ANY TYPE OF SEPARATION OF RELATIONS, BETWEEN THE COLONISTS, AND THE CROWN (Great Britain). OR HOW ABOUT THE FRENCH REVOLUTION WHERE THEY BROKE THE POWER OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THEIR COUNTRY, AS WELL AS DESTROYED THE MONARCHY, thus instituting democracy!!!!!

Or how about the revolutionary-albeit non-violent-movement of Mahatma Ghandi, who eventually broke the backs of the british empire, which led to India's independence????? Again man, try using that fluff elsewhere, for I am too seasoned and steadfast in my views, to either fall for such rhetoric, or let it get by me!

Yes, I think you need to reassess your stance on what a revolutionary is, or is it that you really don't have a bias against those who are classified as revolutionaries, ONLY CERTAIN KINDS OF REVOLUTIONARIES!!

-It's easy to grab up a biscuit and start changing your heart into a stone in the name of a hyper-idealistic political philosophy because of the hate inside you. The problem is that it doesn't get you where you need to go. It will just pit you against a much larger majority of people that will resist you.

TheReal: Look, you can call it hate, or whatever you want to label it as, but the simple fact is, I CAN CARE LESS WHO'S IN THE MAJORITY!!! Not only that, I can care less about "a much larger majority'', who will inevitably "resist" me! Black folks have always been outnumbered and outgunned. If anything, I'm resisting their racism and white supremacy, which is something I have every right to do!! So what you're saying is that Black people ought to sit down and be impotent sheep, and not rail against attacks upon their community, and strike back with similar attacks, in the name of self-defense and reprisals, because of who's in the majority???? All you're doing is training black folks to be cowards, with their tails between their legs!!!! As I said before, I'd rather die with honor, than to live like a p%ssy forever!

With that type of thinking, black folks, or any other oppressed people, wouldn't have achieved, what they achieved, seeing as how the numbers were against them!! Just because they (Mexicans) have the numbers, don't mean, Black folk ought to take their shyt! Remember, I'm only advocating self-defense, not offense, like many of their people are advocating, and if you, or anyone else have a problem with black folks defending themselves: then TOO BAD!!!

-You will become a pawn of whatever organization you choose to join and live in bondage to it and it's rules.

TheReal: Again man, this is becoming redundant, I'm not interested in forming nor joining any organization per se, rather I'm talking about Black folks uniting (particularly the gangs), and fighting collectively, the Mexican gangs and their allies, that seek to prey upon the Black community, by wantonly killing many of its' citizens!!!! Can't you understand anything!!!!!!! You're not telling me nothing new, in regards to organizations!!! The same goes for religious institutions as well, or religious organizations!! Besides, not all organizations rules are bad. Organizations like The Salvation Army, Urban League, SPCA, etc. aren't oppressive, because they're organizations, in and of themelves! If that were the case, THEN, IS VICTORY OUTREACH EVIL!!! Man, stop talking in generalities, while utilizing simplistic arguments!!

-Historically the infighting and killing that can go on in these organizations is pretty hairy. You trade a good measure of liberty found in a Democracy for a very authoritarian environment that keeps you in bondage.

TheReal: Again man, really-WHO'S TALKING ABOUT TAKING SOMEONE'S LIBERTY, AND/OR JOINING AN ORGANIZATION, AND BEING IN BONDAGE??? Man I'm talking about organizations of defense of the black community, I'M NOT TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL!!! Save this argument for someone else, and even though you mean right, WHAT YOU'RE SAYING DOESN'T APPLY TO MY SITUATION!!

-There will be blood on your hands and you will not have a heart of love but of stone.

TheReal: The only blood on my hands that will exist, is that of a predator within our community, who seek to unjustifiably prey on our people, as well as the blood of any racist non-black person, who seek to commit genocide on a race of people: BLACK PEOPLE!!!!!

-I don't want that for anyone.

TheReal: Neither do I, but we all must do what we have to do!

-I certainly don't go on message boards urging people to throw themselves away like that. I want to see them build themselves and their loved ones up.

TheReal: I'm not telling people to go "throw themselves away" either. As a matter of fact, I'm telling blacks to preserve themselves, by defending themselves against those that seek their extermination and containment. If I were anyone else but black, you'd probably understand, or pretend to understand a little more where I'm coming from, but you understand where I'm coming from, however your arrogance is only allowing you to see, what you want to see, and believe...

-So instead of fighting against a system that is working for most people in this country, why not start to harness the opportunities inside it to affect change for you and your future generations.

TheReal: I can get with that, but like Nehemiah and those folks in the Bible, that were rebuilding the temple's walls, yet armed with a sword, just in case they were attacked, likewise black folks ought to do what you've suggested, being aware of the racism and white supremacy that does exist, while arming themselves with mental weaponry, that can yield fruits of education, economic development and independence, as well as physical weaponry, in order to be prepared for any attacks from the outside, by racist devils who feel that they don't belong here. And be ready to kill the enemy if attacked for unprovoked reasons-OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT THEY ARE BLACK!!!!

-Many have gone before you and succeeded. It is hard and there is failures along with successes but along the way you gain true character instead of the idealized vision of it you see in your inner mind.

Get real. Start with yourself. Get out the chalk and draw a circle around you. That's where to start. With everything in that circle not everything else outside it. The paradox is that you can't do it all by yourself. You need that higher power to ultimately succeed (ie God).

TheReal: Again, I'm not anti most of what you've said, however I'm a realist, and do realize that there are people out there who would kill me if they had the opportunity, and would wish that me, and my people were taken off the face of this earth forever!! What am I to do with such devils, once they approach me!! Look at them and smile, and try to hug them? Hell no!! If there's any hugging going on, it is me getting close to them, so that I may cut their damn throats, and dance in their blood!!

Look man, I hear what you're saying, and I do believe you mean well, but I hope the lessons you're trying to impart to me, about my fury, is being conveyed to the fools that I'm attacking as well, because if not, it'll be totally lopsided. It's like me, or anyone for that matter, trying to break up a fight, and as soon as I have one party restrained, the other party is continuing their attack upon the restrained party, thus reigniting the brawl!!

You see what I mean?

_____________________________________________________________
-*When this country goes to war with other nations, and try to kill their enemies, in the name of national defense, and it is justified, then why can't I, or other blacks do the same-seeing as how mexican racists and white supremacists agendas for black folks, aren't all too pretty! Hell, at least I'm talking about striking back, when attacked, unlike many (not all) mexican racists and white supremacists! Their collective philosophy is-AGAIN: "Kill a n!gger, no matter gang affiliation, or not!" And what I'm arguing is that it will get worst, particularly in the southwestern portions of the U.S. for black folks-JUST WAIT AND SEE!!

ME: Countries with legitimate governments that defend themselves or fight illegitimate governments ruled by despots is one thing. A gang of people from one race that form together to essentially produce a "hate group" and war on their "perceived" enemies (ie read anyone they don't like that looks different) inside a country is something entirely different from both a legal, historical, and moral perspective regardless of whether they are black, brown, yellow, white, purple, green, etc...

TheReal: What I'm proposing isn't a "hate" group, nor any group. But if I had to form a group, it wouldn't be based on "hate" nor black supremacy!! The panthers weren't a hate group, neither were they ideologically racist!!! Just because someone learns a martial art (i.e. kenpo, kung-fu, judo, etc.) DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE DOING THIS BECAUSE OF HATE!!! Just because you have a martial arts dojo, full of people, DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE FOLKS IN THE DOJO ARE PRACTICING HATE, OR ARE A HATE GROUP!!!!!

Get real!!!

-As for self defense, that can take legitimate and illegitimate forms as well.

TheReal: I realize this, but black folks defending themselves from the predators within and without their communities IS A LEGITIMATE FORM OF SELF-DEFENSE PURSUIT!!!!

-*Nope! And why would you think that????? [regarding nicknames].

ME: Because I don't know and this is the internet and we've had problems with trolls playing games in here before. Thank you for answering. I believe you are serious in what you believe now at this time.

TheReal: I always have been...
_____________________________________________________________
-*Noooooooooooo...did I not admit that whites and mexicans have interfamily squabbles amongst themselves?? I think I can recall me saying this on several occasions! True enough, you will have skirmishes between the two groups, now and then, HOWEVER, these two groups can still find it within the other group racially to unite on the points that I had addressed, from my previous post-and you, and other folks know this!!!

The thing these two groups have in common, besides being allies, and being members in each other's organizations, IS THERE HATRED AND GENOCIDAL DESIGNS UPON THE BLACK COMMUNITY!!!! Let's be real about this!!!!

-ME: The underground is like that. Above the surface though in the hundreds of thousands of churches, many businesses, integrated neighborhoods, and small communities all over America the vast majority of people work with, live with, have friendships with the Black Community. They have no genocidal designs.

TheReal: I will agree that many people live together in harmony and peace, however, that's just a calm before the storm. That underground that you refer to, is like a potential volcano, that will soon erupt fully, with signs of that happening at this very hour. Now I will admit that many folks, in either the White or Mexican community aren't harboring such feelings of genocide to reign down on the black community, however they tolerate those amongst them, by and large, who harbor such sentiments. Many of them will not attack those of their own family, or race, who speak such things (and of course Mexicans will not talk about what I'm discussing openly to you), but will attack someone like me, who's a biproduct of the murderous spirit that they've unleashed, who only advocate black self-defense.

In other words, I don't wish for any type of war, or "revolution", but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to advocate violence if I'm attacked!!! What's wrong with that principle?? If someone were going to enter into your house, in order to rob and steal, you mean to tell me you wouldn't shoot that person, either to kill, or at the very least wound!!! Or are you someone that doesn't believe in owning firearms?

Well, as I said before, I believe in the power of the gun, and the fullness of what it can do, once placed in my hands, AND SO DO YOU!! However, I'm accused of being a hater, just because I advocate self-defense, and just because the people I'm willing to defend myself against, and view as the enemy, are non-Black folks!

-To me, you sound as if you've spent your whole life in the projects and never formed these bonds and seen what goes on in the rest of the world.

TheReal: Again, all you've been doing is assuming, falsely asserting and being hella presumptuous!!! I've never lived in the projects. Now I have lived in East Oakland, Watts, etc. I mean the bad parts: BUT I NEVER WAS TRAPPED IN THE PROJECTS, SO CHECK YOURSELF AND DEVELOP SOME SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT!!!! I've also lived in Central California, attending a high school that was predominantly Mexican, and attended a United Pentecostal Church with a White pastor, and predominantly Mexican congregation!! I had Mexican friends, while in high school, at the church, as well as the Bible College I attended briefly, before entering the military, and transferring over to a secular college!!

I've been in many situations where I was the only black. Some of those experiences were good, whereas others were bad!!! So as you can see, my present position is based, not on some emotional scar, or my lack of interacting with people of other races, because of being racist in some project!!! My beliefs are based on the realities of this cold harsh world!!! There are plenty of Mexicans out there who have black friends, or homies, whom they kick it with, but behind their backs, they use all types of racial epitaphs against black folk collectively, once their amongst their own. You even have those Mexicans who grow up being cool with blacks, but when they become older, they become racist as hell, forgetting about any bonds of friendship that once was had!!

So naw man, you're presumptuous discernment harddrive, needs to be updated. I think you have a virus interrupting your flow of information.

-I have Black friends from all over the place and I assure you I respect and love them and have none of the designs you are mentioning.

TheReal:I didn't say everyone had these "designs", but the fact that you don't have these "designs" isn't going to interpret in solving the dilemma of those that do have these "designs", or the victims they wreak havoc on!!
_____________________________________________________________

-*No, I'm right in the sense that MOST mexicans are racist, as it stands now in 2003!
[/quote]
Last edited by TheReal on February 11th, 2004, 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 11:07 am

(Sidenote: This is a continuation of my debate with Wcrockets. A debate that the system didn't allow me to post up entirely, in regards to my rebuttal. I've attempted to do so several times, but my efforts were sabotaged. So I've decided to post this reply as a part two, seeing as how I'm not able to attach onto one continuous thread. Peace.)

ME: I don't have those stats. I know in my church and community that is not so. I do suspect in the inner city the ratio is higher.

TheReal: Trust me, outside your church borders, and in your world, is probably much worst, than what you or I can imagine. Let's just be blunt about this: I'VE MET MANY MEXICANS IN MY DAY, WHO'VE TOLD ME THAT THE MAJORITY OF MEXICANS HATE BLACK PEOPLE! Some have admitted that to me in real life, as well as in cyberspace! Some have stated this, with the intention of wounding me, whereas others stated this, as a matter of public record. Despite how the information was given to me, one thing I do know-despite Black folks not being angels-60% OF BLACKS DON'T HATE MEXICANS!!!! I know that for damn sure.

_____________________________________________________________

-*Well, that's your opinion, but in my book, I feel that I covered all areas...

ME: I'm sure you do. Now we need to get back to admitting when we are not always right don't WE.

TheReal: Why are you obsessed with me admitting that I am wrong?

_____________________________________________________________

-*Well I'm sorry if I'm not discussing this particular topic with a smile, or with a less sense of urgency, that others may want me to possess! I don't walk in the spirit of non-violence, nor do I wish to be a good "negro"! And as far as the word "devil", well if you were to read carefully, I'm not calling a whole race of people "devils", just those who manifest certain characteristics.

ME: Ok. Though violence begets violence so expect it to come back on you when you practice it.

TheReal: Violence can come down on me, even when I don't practice it. And the fact that I'm advocating self-defense against violence is a righteous cause, for I am returning the violence, that was begotten on me. Remember, I'm talking self-defense, not foolish offensives, just because someone is White or Mexican!!

_____________________________________________________________

-*More importantly, YOU'RE WRONG! What it is, is that your assessment of my arguments is "all lopsided", because in the end, you're seeing what you want to see, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT I HAD WRITTEN!

ME: I have a brain. I'm an educated person who has been around. Your argument doesn't move me because it's a shallow rerun of what has already not worked.

TheReal: I have a brain, with an IQ of 160, and am also educated (I have several degrees), and have been around the world. Likewise your argument doesn't move, nor phase me, because I've heard it all before. The stance you're taking against me, is based on someone that fits an ideological and psychological profile-a profile you're trying to attach my character, which doesn't fit. This approach therefore makes your argument as deep as a puddle (i.e. shallow), and a mere regurgitation of sophist argumentation!
_____________________________________________________________

-*This statement right here just let's me know that you're trying to engage in sarcasm, based on certain remarks of mine-but it doesn't work. Here's a suggestion: go back and read the context and subtext, of why I had used the word "angels", in my discussion. If you don't, then you'll be relegated to what you're doing now-taking a text, out of context, which is a pretext (falsely stated purpose)!

ME: No I wasn't. I believe in angels. I am a Christian.

TheReal: I was referring to the quotation marks around the word "angels"!!

_____________________________________________________________
-*Say man, if you're getting metaphysical and esoteric with a brother, please calm down. Right now, you appear to be so bent out of shape, from what I've said, to where you're placing quotation marks around the word "angels", as if my use of the word, fell under your definition, of how you're using it!!

ME: I'm not bent. We're having a discussion. If you were talking to me you would see a calm person in front of you. I might make a face or two when you say something I disagree with but I'm listening.. It's a discussion. I can use quotations if I want to same as you. They are on my keyboard. You do realize that typing in all caps constitutes yelling at someone don't you.

TheReal: I do realize "that typing in all caps constitutes yelling at someone", however, placing something in quotations also tells me that you probably don't hold to much stock in the belief of angels existing. Furthermore, I thought you were putting the word "angels" in quotations, in order to sarcastically address the fact that I admitted to blacks being not being "angels"!

No more, no less...

_____________________________________________________________
-*I hope you're right, but with this younger generation-I don't know...

ME: The younger generation has reached out a lot more than the older one in this country in my experience. I haven't seen any stats to support it but are you seeing a backlash or something?

TheReal: Yes, and seeing as how you haven't walked in my shoes, I really don't expect you to understand fully! Besides, what you see is just a calm before the storm. As a matter of fact, on my rebuttal, I will go further into details in regards to this one angle. You'd be surprised by what I have to say!

_____________________________________________________________
-*You know why? BECAUSE I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT THE GOOD WHITE FOLKS THAT ASSISTED BLACK PEOPLE WITH THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS!!! The context of my discussion was talking about those "good" white, or mexican folks, who claim not to be haters and racists, yet they tolerate, and live easily and comfortably, with the racism coming from their people, and how their people exercise that racism, in order to oppress and suppress, the movement of others: THAT'S WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO!!!

Within the context, of the issue I was addressing, I didn't make a logical miscalculation! Okay, if you want me to admit that there were white folks that helped black people attain many of their rights-I WILL ADMIT THAT, if it makes you feel good, but know this: THAT WASN'T THE POINT, NOT EVEN THE SUBTEXT, OF WHAT I WAS ADDRESSING!! (For further clarification of what I was getting at, just reread the post, this man has a problem with.)

ME: It should be though as it looks like you're trying to organize by race a militant organization(s) in pursuit of your idealist philisophy which as I've already previously shown doesn't work and just makes things worse.

TheReal: You haven't shown me anything. If anything, I was cleaning up portions of your arguments...
_____________________________________________________________

-The masses don't need more racial tension they need to less.

TheReal: I agree, however, just because the "masses don't need more racial tension" doesn't mean that I'm not going to advocate violence, if attacked, all in the name of peace. If you tell those fools to drop their weaponry, then there wouldn't be a need for folks like me!! I'm here on the scene, because they exist!!! They cried out for war, someone heard, and now I'm produced for a time such as this!

ME:Historically, if a true revival swept this country a LOT more good would be accomplished in the Black Community than any hyper-idealistic race war.

TheReal: In the sense of soul saving, but it still won't take care of dealing with the hostiles outside your community, that is waiting for the day to take you down. Black folks back in the day were far more religious than they are now, BUT IT STILL DIDN'T KEEP THE GOOD WHITE FOLKS FROM PLACING THEIR FEET ON THEIR NECKS!! It's as if when Black folks were less violent, had more stable families, and didn't look the white man in the eyes, and highly religious, THAT WAS WHEN THEY WERE GETTING BEATEN, LYNCHED, SHOT LIKE DOGS, ENSLAVED, ETC!!!!

So I hear you about the revival thing, but it still not going to take away from the problems of the real world!!

_____________________________________________________________

-*Look, I'm not foolish enough to think that "lower class whites" were total victims, of the hegemony machine, that was in operation by their elitist white brethren. Truth be told, many of your "lower class whites" had a vested interest in keeping blacks beneath them, in the sense that-IF THEY COULDN'T BE BETTER THAN BLACK FOLKS, THEN WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THEM!!!!

White elitists in the south didn't teach these lower class whites about racism, that dilemma started from the ground up! White folk were collectively racist in the south, because they were products of white supremacy and white privilege!! Another thing-it doesn't matter if many of their elitist brethren were pulling strings, in order to maintain the status quo, because 1) many of the lower class whites would rather have their own kind (white folks) being in a position of power oppressing them, which essentially gave them hope, or self-esteem despite their circumstances-WHITE FOLKS WERE STILL IN CONTROL; and 2) lower class whites, despite their "exploitation" by the hands of their elitist brethren, were some willing "exploitees!!" In other words, they hated black folks so intensely, despite allegedly being pawns in a larger game, so to speak-THAT MANY OF THEM HATED BLACK FOLKS, MORE SO THAN THEY LOVED THEIR OWN CHILDREN!! And you know this!

ME: Ok, I defer to you here. I've taken a lot of history and am well read but that doesn't make me an expert on the South and you may be.

TheReal: I hear ya'.

_____________________________________________________________
-*Most of the whites that joined the Civil Rights movement, were from up north, and they were primarily jewish. Now this isn't to say that whites from the south didn't help in the Civil Rights movement, rather, I'm just adding a bit of historical perspective to your statements.

Secondly, when you say that "many good people of all races" helped to bring about "Civil Rights movement's victories", don't make it sound as if there were a drove of asians and mexicans, heading down south, in order to help black folks get the right to vote, etc. Now I will admit, folks like Joan Baez, and probably a few other non-blacks, who were non-white, aided and abetted black folks during this time, but it was miniscule in comparison to white folks.

White folks were the only non-black group (and I'm including jews, even though many whites and others, don't view jews as being white) in droves, to really assist black folks back in the day!

ME: Ok. I accept that.

TheReal: I hear ya!

_____________________________________________________________
-Also, it's interesting that every single one of his posts to date are in threads entitled "Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2," "Re: If B's and C's united, could they take out Mexican gangs," "Re: WHAT DOES 13 MEAN," "Re: CHOLOS AND CHOLAS," "Re: Los Angeles County Jail? [posting his, in my opinion, is his mexican=white racist argument]", and lastly "Man, cut the BS! [talking about the clothes thing]."

*Uh...as I said earlier: I HAVE A RIGHT TO ADDRESS THE TOPICS THAT I FIND INTERESTING, AND WHY DOES IT THREATEN YOU??

-ME: It doesn't threaten me I am just seeking to understand you better and if all of your 34 posts are related to one position then that should be brought out so we know that.

TheReal: Trust me, it ain't all that deep....

_____________________________________________________________

-*Would you ask a soldier on the battlefield, whose duty is to defend his ground, and possibly the people he's looking after, whether or not he was obsessed? Would you ask the farmer whose land is overrun with insects eating up his produce, if he were obsessed, if he decided to use pesticides on his fruits and vegetables? Or better yet, would you have asked Martin Luther King if he were obsessed with his drive, to bring about freedom for black people, whether you agreed, or disagreed with King's ultimate goals? Of course you wouldn't, so why ask such a question of me?

ME: In my opinion, you are a self-commissioned soldier fighting the battle in the wrong way for the wrong reasons in my opinion. I disagree with your approach and have already stated why. I would never compare you to Dr Martin Luther King based on your hypothesis. And I do believe he is RIP.

TheReal: Neither have I compared myself to Dr. Martin Luther King either. I was dealing with the matter of you calling me "obsessed", which had negative connotations, and used Dr. King as an example of how obsession isn't necessarily a bad thing!

_____________________________________________________________

-As I said earlier, I, like anyone else here, am addressing topics that interest me personally, no more, no less. Trust me, it's not a mystery!!

ME: Ok.

TheReal: Okay...
_____________________________________________________________

-What's more important is the integrity of my information, and the truth that is contained therein. Peace.

ME: I think your argument is flawed and in error. Peace.

TheReal: Likewise, I think your understanding of my argument is flawed, buttressed by the sophist arguments you've put forth. Peace.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 11th, 2004, 11:53 am

The Real,

I think you need a perscription of xanax or something.. your doctor can help you determine that. To me all your blustering is pure nonsense. You're just another Indian on the warpath. Met one and you've met them all. Peace out.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 12:01 pm

wcrockets wrote:The Real,

I think you need a perscription of xanax or something.. your doctor can help you determine that. To me all your blustering is pure nonsense. You're just another Indian on the warpath. Met one and you've met them all. Peace out.
*Your ad hominem attacks don't take away, nor diminish my positions, nor the truths that I've put forth. I've responded to you honestly, cogently, and intelligently, to where all you can do is reply with personal attacks. Whatever makes you happy...and I'm out too (flatline)...

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 11th, 2004, 12:29 pm

No you just couldn't handle someone questioning your silly argument so you became unruly, started yelling, and are still making your false accusations about me and maybe anyone else who disagrees with your premises. For every one finger you point my way there are three pointing right back you as anyone can see.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 1:49 pm

No you just couldn't handle someone questioning your silly argument

*To the contrary. I not only handled your "silly argument(s)", questions and attacks, but flushed them down the toilet stool of sophistry and double-talk!

-so you became unruly, started yelling,

*Became "unruly" and "started yelling"? Man, how old are you, because you definitely have some paternal, or parental overtones. Let me just set the record straight, concerning my "unruly" behavior, etc.: STOP TAKING IT SO DAMN SERIOUSLY!!!!! I'm a highly restrained, laid back sort of individual, who can become passionate and fiery, about topics, and whatnot!! What I key in on the keyboard, is a reflection of my speaking style, once I have the floor (or podium, or whatever)!!!

And as far as being "unruly"-you gotsta take a chill pill pops, I'm no child. I answered your questions, and replied righteously to everything you threw at me. LOL!!!!

-and are still making your false accusations about me and maybe anyone else who disagrees with your premises.

*What "false accusations"? Oh, you mean the way I dissected your arguments, and attacks upon my character, by turning right back around and sounding the alarm on yours!! Man, that's old fashioned tit-for-tat!!! Remember, it was you who accused me of wanting to be a martyr, and a revolutionary needing medication, with dictatorial designs, that will inevitably lead black youth to pain and anguish! As a result, I addressed those statements of yours, and forthrightly handled all of what you threw at me: nothing more, nothing less.

-For every one finger you point my way there are three pointing right back you as anyone can see.

*Okay pops, now go pray, get some rest-SO THAT YOU CAN COME BACK ANOTHER DAY!!! Go read the Bible, and teach some youth about Jesus being the savior, because truth be told, on this topic-I'm the wrong person to be tangling with.

And I'm not mocking God (Jesus), nor the bible, because I believe in both (probably not the way you do). I'm just telling it like it is...

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 11th, 2004, 2:27 pm

Oh is that a threat? Honestly, have you ever considered being a stand up comedian? You might be good at it.

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by TheReal » February 11th, 2004, 2:49 pm

-Oh is that a threat?

*A "threat"? Now I see that you are taking this discussion personally. Does something like-IF I CAN'T CONQUER HIM, THEN I'LL SLAY HIM, comes to mind here? LOL!! Oh, I see, when I told you something akin to not tangling with me, you somehow perceived that as a threat? LOL! No pops, that was no "threat", that was a point of fact!

-Honestly, have you ever considered being a stand up comedian?

*Yes, but I'm much better writing funny material, than I am getting up on stage and acting a fool. But I am an actor.

-You might be good at it.

*Others have made the same observation...

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Re: race war: blacks vs mexicans PART 2

Unread post by wcrockets » February 11th, 2004, 3:26 pm

Just asking and I'm sure you're a funny guy.

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