anyone else think that

[Sentenza]

Yea and now we are getting to the core of the problem. Most western countries have a well organized law enforcement system..

That is also, why many asian countries like China, Japan or Singapur and also a couple of islamic countries have traditionally low crime rates. The saying "The grass must bend, when the wind blows across it" perfectly reflects that philosophy. When the government orders you to do something you must follow or you will be taken out. This has been practised over centuries in East Asia and led to a very disciplined attitude. The punishments that were implemented for only the most minor crimes in ancient japan make extremist muslims & the Sharia look like a fucking joke.

Social control is also the key word. Intact family- and social structures are the best crime preventor. Which means for example that if you live in Cairo and you steal something, most probably someone in the neighbourhood will know you and tell your family and they will punish you hard or in the worst case expel you from the family. You will loose everything. That is the reason, why Cairo, the largest city in Africa, with more then 20 Million people living there has a very low crime rate.
Now if you grow up in a favela in Brazil as an orphan and all the people around you are crackheads, no one will give a shit about you and you dont have anything to loose.
All these structures have been destroyed in southern Africa and South America.

[thekinks1886]

Social control is also the key word. Intact family- and social structures are the best crime preventor. Which means for example that if you live in Cairo and you steal something, most probably someone in the neighbourhood will know you and tell your family and they will punish you hard or in the worst case expel you from the family. You will loose everything. That is the reason, why Cairo, the largest city in Africa, with more then 20 Million people living there has a very low crime rate.

The problem there is the balance between "control" and police state- taking an extreme view Germany under Hitler would have had a low crime rate, same for Russia under Stalin- Egypt likes to tout itself as a modern world country where freedoms are enshrined- it is in fact quite the police state- watched an excellent documentary on Cairo on Channel 4 (British tv) about the rubbish people, who basically survive by sorting the rubbish- the rubbish people are Christians and oppressed minority in Egypt- the British reporter encountered extraordinary levels of state interference, escorting, monitoring etc, both by clothed police and plain clothed security forces

Now if you grow up in a favela in Brazil as an orphan and all the people around you are crackheads, no one will give a shit about you and you dont have anything to loose.
All these structures have been destroyed in southern Africa and South America.

What structures were destroyed in sub saharan Africa? Do you mean post colonialism or as a result of colonialism- pre colonialism sub saharan africa was largely a tribalist entity- the problem with Africa is whether it can free itself from tribal politics, corruption, wars, etc- is it ever going to become a suitable land for nation states.

Just as an side, reading a book at the moment called Blood Rites, and the extent of human sacrifice, to this day in Africa is truly startling- in European eyes we would have to rewined 2,000 years to the Celts, Vikings etc to get a similar culture- shocking stuff and again the true extent of the thousands killed this way each year will never be known

[Sentenza]

The problem there is the balance between "control" and police state- taking an extreme view Germany under Hitler would have had a low crime rate, same for Russia under Stalin- Egypt likes to tout itself as a modern world country where freedoms are enshrined- it is in fact quite the police state- watched an excellent documentary on Cairo on Channel 4 (British tv) about the rubbish people, who basically survive by sorting the rubbish- the rubbish people are Christians and oppressed minority in Egypt- the British reporter encountered extraordinary levels of state interference, escorting, monitoring etc, both by clothed police and plain clothed security forces

It is, thats true. Egypt is a country on the edge of civil war at times. But my example was just meant to show how ethics and family structures can prevent crime. If Egypt was in the condition of, lets say Colombia, then no police force in the world could control a city of 20+ million.

What structures were destroyed in sub saharan Africa? Do you mean post colonialism or as a result of colonialism- pre colonialism sub saharan africa was largely a tribalist entity- the problem with Africa is whether it can free itself from tribal politics, corruption, wars, etc- is it ever going to become a suitable land for nation states.

Just as an side, reading a book at the moment called Blood Rites, and the extent of human sacrifice, to this day in Africa is truly startling- in European eyes we would have to rewined 2,000 years to the Celts, Vikings etc to get a similar culture- shocking stuff and again the true extent of the thousands killed this way each year will never be known

I would say partially because of colonialism but especially because of what happened after the colonial era. Africa hasnt always been like this with wars and genocides taking place all over the place.
The random borders that the colonial powers drew and the exploitation and destruction of historically grown societies lead to the catastrophic situation in africa nowadays.
Tribalism is another factor that keeps it going.

[thekinks1886]

It is, thats true. Egypt is a country on the edge of civil war at times. But my example was just meant to show how ethics and family structures can prevent crime. If Egypt was in the condition of, lets say Colombia, then no police force in the world could control a city of 20+ million.

indeed, ethics and family structures can prevent crime- would not disagree. Take the UK for example our family structure and dilution of morality since the 1960s has witnessed severe epidemics of criminality in our cities. It is not always a nice thing to hear for certain people but lack of a father figure is a big factor- YES a child can be born into loving family with a father and mother and go into crim, and YES a child born to a single mother can be a wonderful productive human being, HOWEVER on a societal basis it is much more likely that being born into a single parent household will lead into crime

I would say partially because of colonialism but especially because of what happened after the colonial era. Africa hasnt always been like this with wars and genocides taking place all over the place.

I think Africa always had problems with tribal conflict, obviously, pre colonialism, this was little known about and on a much lower scale due to massively lower population in such a huge continent and the modern tribal conflicts now have the added bonus of modern technology (although not to the same extent available in Europe)

The random borders that the colonial powers drew and the exploitation and destruction of historically grown societies lead to the catastrophic situation in africa nowadays.
Tribalism is another factor that keeps it going.

Possibly however, what was the alternative? Africans wanted europeans out (Europeans had lost the will to govern Africa) so some sort of national boundary had to be drawn- in sub saharan africa this was always going to cause problems with such endemic tribal, ethnic, cultural division.


The European notion of nation state came to formation in the 17th century (although certain nations had already fostered this notion of nationhood, such as Britain and Spain) so we have had 300+ years to get used to the notion- I just don't know when sub saharan Africa will be ready for the same transition?

[Sentenza]

indeed, ethics and family structures can prevent crime- would not disagree. Take the UK for example our family structure and dilution of morality since the 1960s has witnessed severe epidemics of criminality in our cities. It is not always a nice thing to hear for certain people but lack of a father figure is a big factor- YES a child can be born into loving family with a father and mother and go into crim, and YES a child born to a single mother can be a wonderful productive human being, HOWEVER on a societal basis it is much more likely that being born into a single parent household will lead into crime

Which should be a wake up call for all people to take care of their kids and be responsible. And i am not only talking financially.
I would bet a large amount of money that that would reduce crime a lot in couple of years.