How does payment works in organized crime groups?

[CheGuevara]

First of all, that is not a ridicuolous statement. The Italians have done nothing the Albanians cant reach. You admitted yourself that the Albanians are more involved in Marijuana. You should be able to admit that the Albanians are more involved in human trafficking unless you're brain dead. Which I think you might be. This is why I say there should be no comparison. I simply say that the Albanians can match the Italians in Canada because there isnt any evidence indicating that the Italians are more powerful then the Albanians in Canada. I didnt say they surpass them and if I did then I take it back. But they are not so far part where you could tell which one exceeds the other.


As for the Albanians in Europe. I have three official sources calling you a liar. What do you have. This is the 100th time I have asked you this question.

[Azure9920]

The Italians have done nothing the Albanians cant reach.

But they haven't come close, so who cares about what "could" happen?

You admitted yourself that the Albanians are more involved in Marijuana.

They aren't.

You should be able to admit that the Albanians are more involved in human trafficking unless you're brain dead.

Are they still, even after that single group was busted?

there isnt any evidence indicating that the Italians are more powerful then the Albanians in Canada.

There's tons of it, you just choose to ignore it and think what you want. There is absolutely no comparison between them. TOC far exceeds BOC and EEOC, it'd be safe to venture to say it exceeds both of them combined. The only groups that approach them are AOC and OMG's.

[thewestside]

But they haven't come close, so who cares about what "could" happen?

Exactly. Hypothetical wishful thinking is all Johnny has left. Just like his take on the Albanians in the U.S. "Well, they could become the new kingpins of crime." It's ridiculous.

They aren't.

For the record, I simply said that the Italians have traditionally been more involved in heroin and cocaine than any other drug. That's why I said that it might be "possible" that the Albanians are bigger in that respect. But as I also said, the Italians are big players in marijuana too. And all Johnny has come up with is an excerpt from one report that says Albanians are emerging as wholesale marijuana traffickers. Of course, none of this proves in any way Johnny's overall point that Albanians can match the Italians.

Are they still, even after that single group was busted?

Good point. A single group that got busted was responsible for 75% of the human smuggling into one whole state and Johnny acts like that is something to brag about.

There's tons of it, you just choose to ignore it and think what you want. There is absolutely no comparison between them. TOC far exceeds BOC and EEOC, it'd be safe to venture to say it exceeds both of them combined. The only groups that approach them are AOC and OMG's.

This is why I'm sick of arguing with the ignorant little shit. He won't do his homework. And the reason is because he doesn't want to see any evidence that blows his fantasies out of the water. The guy knows next to nothing about Italian OC in Canada but thinks he can make comparisons between them and the Albanians. Like I said before, he'll try to flip the tables and say "Well, how much have you studied Albanian OC in Canada?" He should be asking himself that question. I'm sure he's spent many hours trying to dig up any little thing he can find on the Albanians in the country. What has he come up with? A couple reports where they are mentioned as being emerging wholesale marijuana traffickers. OK. And they are involved in other crimes like counterfeiting. OK. And there was one group that was responsible for most of the human smuggling into Michigan. Well, before it got busted any way. Oh, and let's not forget about that drug bust in Winnipeg. That's pretty much the some total of it. And this in any way can match the Italian groups in Canada? The Siclian Mafia, the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta, and elemements of the American LCN? Not even close. Everything I've read about Albanian OC in Canada, including what Johnny has found, doesn't even match the Rizzuto organization alone. The Italians far surpass the Albanians there. As do the Asians and Outlaw Motorcycle groups. The Eurasian groups are also ahead of them.

[CheGuevara]

But they haven't come close, so who cares about what "could" happen?

Im comparing the current situation not what could down the line.

They aren't.

Thats you're opinion. Mine is different.

Are they still, even after that single group was busted?

So what if a single group was busted. There are alot more Albanian traffickers in that area. Ermira Hatija was a human trafficker. Its sad to see how you think this is the only Albanian group that operated on that border. Its the same thing with Rudaj. thewestside was foolishly asking, "Besides Rudaj, who else is there?" This is why I call you guys ignorant on AOC. Because you arent aware of whats out there because you havent spent any time reading about it.

There's tons of it, you just choose to ignore it and think what you want. There is absolutely no comparison between them. TOC far exceeds BOC and EEOC, it'd be safe to venture to say it exceeds both of them combined. The only groups that approach them are AOC and OMG's.

OKay, well rather then argue with me over and over. Prove me wrong. Show me numerous links and sources that prove me wrong and I will admit I am wrong. I can admit when I am wrong but so far. Your argument has just been, "yes the are!"

[CheGuevara]

Exactly. Hypothetical wishful thinking is all Johnny has left. Just like his take on the Albanians in the U.S. "Well, they could become the new kingpins of crime." It's ridiculous.

When did the Albanians come to America in mass numbers? In 1997. They have only been here for ten years. Lets give it another ten. Then we can have this conversation again and we will see who is saying what. In ten years, you're gonna change you're religious beliefs.

Are they still, even after that single group was busted?

Good point. A single group that got busted was responsible for 75% of the human smuggling into one whole state and Johnny acts like that is something to brag about.

IT IS SOMETHING to bring up! Are you joking? That was simply one organization. Ermira Hatija was another. Who knows how many of these guys are out there. I mean to have one AOC group controlling 75% of the human smuggling into the state of Michigan is a big thing.

This is why I'm sick of arguing with the ignorant little shit. He won't do his homework. And the reason is because he doesn't want to see any evidence that blows his fantasies out of the water. The guy knows next to nothing about Italian OC in Canada but thinks he can make comparisons between them and the Albanians. Like I said before, he'll try to flip the tables and say "Well, how much have you studied Albanian OC in Canada?" He should be asking himself that question. I'm sure he's spent many hours trying to dig up any little thing he can find on the Albanians in the country. What has he come up with? A couple reports where they are mentioned as being emerging wholesale marijuana traffickers. OK. And they are involved in other crimes like counterfeiting. OK. And there was one group that was responsible for most of the human smuggling into Michigan. Well, before it got busted any way. Oh, and let's not forget about that drug bust in Winnipeg. That's pretty much the some total of it. And this in any way can match the Italian groups in Canada? The Siclian Mafia, the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta, and elemements of the American LCN? Not even close. Everything I've read about Albanian OC in Canada, including what Johnny has found, doesn't even match the Rizzuto organization alone. The Italians far surpass the Albanians there. As do the Asians and Outlaw Motorcycle groups. The Eurasian groups are also ahead of them.

You see, this is you're problem. You read entire books about the Italians and only see what I bring on here to judge the Albanians. You look up a few google searches about Albanians while reading entire books about the Italians and assume you know shit. Again, like I said, you did not know about Ermire Hatija, the smuggle group, Kadriovski, Lulzim Kupi, before I had to break it down for you. You were asking, "Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?"

You're sad and ignorant. You dont know shit of the Albanian mafia in any region of the world. I have had to tell you everything so far. You wont even respond to my, 'Official: Albanian Mafia' thread because it calls you a fcuking liar.

How much more dont you know about the Albanian mafia. Because as time goes by, you have proven yourself more and more ignorant about the Albanian mafia in all areas of the world.

[Azure9920]

They aren't.

Thats you're opinion. Mine is different.

That's not opinion, it's evident by the facts and evidence provided. You've yet to provide a SINGLE large scale Albanian group in the marijuana trade in Canada. No offense, but you don't really have a great understanding of the Canadian marijuana trade, based on what you've said thusfar. If it's your opinion that the Albanians exceed the Italians in marijuana within Canada, prove it. And I'll ask again, do you know who Michael Dicicco is?

So what if a single group was busted.

Well, that's the only group you've provided evidence for.

There are alot more Albanian traffickers in that area.

I'm sure there are a number of Albanian criminals within the Windsor area, given that there are quite a number of Balkan immigrants in the region. However, they are most likely small cell-like groups.

Ermira Hatija was a human trafficker.

I'm aware of who she is. If I'm not mistaken, she was mostly involved in X though. That's going back a couple years too, I remember seeing her name going through the Nathanson center files the other day.

Because you arent aware of whats out there because you havent spent any time reading about it.

I read about all forms of Canadian organized crime, whatever I can find in fact. YorkU is a wonderful resource, if you're interested in learning more. However, having read literally all the files available at Canada's leading organized crime database, the fact that there are less than 5 mentions of Albanians speaks on how active they really are.

OKay, well rather then argue with me over and over. Prove me wrong. Show me numerous links and sources that prove me wrong and I will admit I am wrong. I can admit when I am wrong but so far. Your argument has just been, "yes the are!"

Okay:
26 million dollar gambling ring
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story ... raids.html
Multi-HUNDRED million dollar gambling ring
http://www.casinonews.org/archive/AA-AID=1012.html
600 million dollar money laundering operation
http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page246.html

"Police say their bookmaking operations in Montreal, Toronto and Ottawa alone did from $500 million to $1 billion in business in one 11-month period in 2005."
http://www.juliansher.com/books/angels/ ... ws/rob.htm

Penway Stock manipulation
http://siliconinvestor.advfn.com/readre ... ctid=19673

OMG media- Garbage collection in the GTA
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2003/ed031003.htm

Sicilian bridge/Montreal Olympic scandal
http://www.nicaso.com/pages/doc_page187.html

Among many, many others. I won't touch drug trafficking, there are numerous indictments and arrests to back that up. Of course, I've spoken about all of these matters before, I guess you just overlooked them. If you'd like, I could collect all the articles, indictments and reports I have access to on the OTHER Italian groups within Canada as well- seeing as this is just the Rizzuto group alone, and merely the tip of the iceberg in relation to their operations, both past and present. The magnitude of Operation Colisée alone should have clued you in to the massive size, wealth and influence of the Rizzuto's, but for some reason you overlooked that as well.

[thewestside]

When did the Albanians come to America in mass numbers? In 1997. They have only been here for ten years. Lets give it another ten. Then we can have this conversation again and we will see who is saying what. In ten years, you're gonna change you're religious beliefs.

Hell, I'll give the Albanians 20 years. It ain't gonna happen. And I've explained why repeatedly. For the same reason no other group has done it. Groups who have been here much longer than the Albanians. The same factors that allowed the LCN to become as entrenched and powerful as it did simply are not there for the newer groups, including Albanians. But you simply like to believe that Albanians are somehow special. And that somehow, unlike all the other groups, they will beat the odds. And all you have to base this on is the simple fact that you want it to be true. You hope it will be true. Not that it is in any way likely to happen. It's the same thing with your opinion on the Albanians in Canada - what "could" happen.

IT IS SOMETHING to bring up! Are you joking? That was simply one organization. Ermira Hatija was another. Who knows how many of these guys are out there. I mean to have one AOC group controlling 75% of the human smuggling into the state of Michigan is a big thing.

So you've managed to bring up two groups. How does this prove that Albanians are more involved in human trafficking than Italians? But even more to the point, how does this prove that Albanians can match the Italians in Canada overall? And like I said before, if you read about any other group being responsible for 75% of the human trafficking into one state you wouldn't give it a second thought. But you latched onto it because that one group involved Albanians.

You see, this is you're problem. You read entire books about the Italians and only see what I bring on here to judge the Albanians. You look up a few google searches about Albanians while reading entire books about the Italians and assume you know shit. Again, like I said, you did not know about Ermire Hatija, the smuggle group, Kadriovski, Lulzim Kupi, before I had to break it down for you. You were asking, "Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?"

First, there is far less information about Albanian OC as compared to Italian OC in Canada. Over the years, I've read just about every Canadian OC report that mentions Albanians. They are simply an emerging group there and have not even begun to approach the Italians. But just like I said you would, you try to call my research into question. YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO MAKE THE COMPARISON!!! You are the one who is trying to make the bold statement that Albanians, in so short a time, can match the Italians who have been active in the country for over a half century. But you have not done any research on the Italian groups. Do you understand? You can't come here and make these claims and expect people to take you seriously if you haven't studied both groups. All you've done is find anything you can dig up on Google about Albanians. You've found a few cases and names I wasn't aware of but you have shown nothing that changes my opinion of Albanian OC in the country overall. And you certainly haven't proven that they can match the Italians. That's why you resort to simply "what could be" or what could happen in the future. But I know you won't try to research anything about the Italians because it doesn't interest you. No type of organized crime really interests you except Albanian OC. And you are only interested in that as far as you can compare it to others so you try and win bragging rights because it boosts your ego. That's the sum total of why you are here in the first place.

You're sad and ignorant. You dont know shit of the Albanian mafia in any region of the world. I have had to tell you everything so far. You wont even respond to my, 'Official: Albanian Mafia' thread because it calls you a fcuking liar.

Or maybe it's because we've gone over that time and time and time again. I'm sick of it. I'm only responding to this Canadian topic because it's relatively new. I'm sick of arguing with someone who has an agenda. You read about a drug bust involving Albanians in Winnipeg and you claim they've "gone global." You read a few reports and articles about Albanians in Canada and you claim they can match the Italians. You claim that it's "debatable" between the Italians and Albanians over who is bigger in scope around the world, even though you've said many times before that the Italians are bigger. You assume that the Albanians will be the new kingpins of crime in the U.S. even though there is no reason to believe so. You assume the Albanians are the second biggest traffickers of cocaine in Europe even though you have no sources or figures to support you. You come up with your own little "tier" system of who is at the top in international organized crime and expect anyone to take it seriously. And surprise, it includes Albanians. You claim Albanians can match the Russians in the U.S. after earlier saying the Russians are the strongest there and then give a lame excuse for changing your story. You keep going back and back and back to the Rudaj gang, trying to get as much mileage out of them as you can, because it's the only Albanian group that tried to take on the LCN in the U.S.

In short, I'm sick of you monopolizing this board and starting thread after thread - as well as hijacking others - to argue about one thing - Albanian OC. And all because you don't want anyone to "downsize" Albanian OC, as if you are the guardian of Albanian OC's reputation. You come here wanting to "educate" people about Albanian OC. Well who the fuck asked you to in the first place? Very few people really give a damn. I'm one of the few that respond to you because I have an interest in all types of OC. But have you noticed how people have quit posting on this forum? That's because they don't like what it's become - a neverending diatribe by you about Albanian OC. That's why you've been banned again and again. I've known for a long time now that if I engage in arguments with you I'm simply fueling the problem. Your biggest fear is not that people will downsize Albanian OC. Your biggest fear is that people simply don't care about Albanian OC at all. That's why you harp on that one subject without ceasing. If you couldn't post on Albanian OC, you'd have no reason to post at all.

[CheGuevara]

And I'll ask again, do you know who Michael Dicicco is?

No

Well, that's the only group you've provided evidence for.

But there are more.

I'm sure there are a number of Albanian criminals within the Windsor area, given that there are quite a number of Balkan immigrants in the region. However, they are most likely small cell-like groups.

So what if they are small and cell like. All Albanian groups are like that. Just because the groups themselevs are small and cell like, it doesnt mean the group in general is small.

I read about all forms of Canadian organized crime, whatever I can find in fact. YorkU is a wonderful resource, if you're interested in learning more. However, having read literally all the files available at Canada's leading organized crime database, the fact that there are less than 5 mentions of Albanians speaks on how active they really are.

I am not trying to sound like a person dying for the Albanians to be number one but the Albanians are aloooooot less visible then everyone else. To quote what an official said, sometimes we dont even know we have an Albanian to put him down under Albanian OC.

Among many, many others. I won't touch drug trafficking, there are numerous indictments and arrests to back that up. Of course, I've spoken about all of these matters before, I guess you just overlooked them. If you'd like, I could collect all the articles, indictments and reports I have access to on the OTHER Italian groups within Canada as well- seeing as this is just the Rizzuto group alone, and merely the tip of the iceberg in relation to their operations, both past and present. The magnitude of Operation Colisée alone should have clued you in to the massive size, wealth and influence of the Rizzuto's, but for some reason you overlooked that as well.

You're sources proved me wrong. TOC seems to be more powerful thn AOC in Canada. Whats the exact name for the YorkU site?

[Azure9920]

No

At least you're honest.

But there are more.

I'm aware of that. None on a large scale level have yet to be produced however.

So what if they are small and cell like. All Albanian groups are like that. Just because the groups themselevs are small and cell like, it doesnt mean the group in general is small.

I wasn't inferring anything by that, merely stating an observation of the groups. Don't get so jumpy. However, these groups ARE small and uninfluential in the overall world of Canadian OC.

You're sources proved me wrong. TOC seems to be more powerful thn AOC in Canada. Whats the exact name for the YorkU site?

www.yorku.ca/nathanson/default.htm

It's old, and hasn't been updated in quite some time, but a great resource for past indictments and the overall state of Canadian OC.

[thewestside]

You're sources proved me wrong. TOC seems to be more powerful thn AOC in Canada. Whats the exact name for the YorkU site?

Seems to be more powerful? Nope. Is unquestionably more powerful. No comparison whatsoever. But the underlying point is, Azure shouldn't have had to provide you the sources that proved you wrong. Before even making the stupid statements you did, you should have done your own homework. But as usual, you simply researched Albanians alone because all you were intrested in was getting enough "evidence" to the point where you thought you had a good argument that Albanians could now match yet another group in yet another part of the world.

[CheGuevara]

I'm aware of that. None on a large scale level have yet to be produced however.

I prefer to say, none have been brought to public. Because I mean think about it. It is only me that can dig up an Albanian organization smuggling 75% of the humans into Michigan because I research about it extensively and I know Albanian last names. But who knows how much I miss? You also got to understand that cops are very unfamiliar with Albanian last names making them hard to brand as Albanian OC somtimes.

I wasn't inferring anything by that, merely stating an observation of the groups. Don't get so jumpy. However, these groups ARE small and uninfluential in the overall world of Canadian OC.

I didnt mean for it to sound jumpy. Yes I am aware that Albanian groups are small and cell like but its the unity with the other groups that makes them what they are around the world. Most Albanian cells that you speak of are family cells. They cooperate heavily with other cells especially the ones originating from the nearby region in Albania as where they are from.

[Azure9920]

I'm aware of that. None on a large scale level have yet to be produced however.

I prefer to say, none have been brought to public. Because I mean think about it. It is only me that can dig up an Albanian organization smuggling 75% of the humans into Michigan because I research about it extensively and I know Albanian last names. But who knows how much I miss? You also got to understand that cops are very unfamiliar with Albanian last names making them hard to brand as Albanian OC sometimes.

If you glance at Canadian OC reports of the last decade or so(available at the site I provided you), you'll find very few Albanian, or even Balkan names. While they may be difficult to place, the names even remotely similar to Albanian are still far and few between. The human smuggling- and its intercorrelated sex racket- seems to be dominated by Asians, Russians and Indo-Asian groups. I'm sure you, and Vostok will both agree that Russian surnames, and Albanian surnames are nothing alike.

[thewestside]

If you glance at Canadian OC reports of the last decade or so(available at the site I provided you), you'll find very few Albanian, or even Balkan names. While they may be difficult to place, the names even remotely similar to Albanian are still far and few between. The human smuggling- and its intercorrelated sex racket- seems to be dominated by Asians, Russians and Indo-Asian groups. I'm sure you, and Vostok will both agree that Russian surnames, and Albanian surnames are nothing alike.

Notice how Johnny is trying to use the lack of information to his advantage. For him, it's not what we know. It's what we don't know. Because those intelligence gaps give him leeway to hypothsize what possibly "could be." And he focuses on that because the "what actually is" here and now doesn't support his wishful thinking.

[CheGuevara]

If you glance at Canadian OC reports of the last decade or so(available at the site I provided you), you'll find very few Albanian, or even Balkan names. While they may be difficult to place, the names even remotely similar to Albanian are still far and few between. The human smuggling- and its intercorrelated sex racket- seems to be dominated by Asians, Russians and Indo-Asian groups. I'm sure you, and Vostok will both agree that Russian surnames, and Albanian surnames are nothing alike.

Depends. Albanians from former Yugoslavia have names like Kadriovski which could very easily be mistaken for Russian or Serbian. Like Roko Berisic for example. He was one of the people on the group's indictment but his name sounds Serbian.

I will take a look at that site. See if I can dig anything up

[Dobre]

If you glance at Canadian OC reports of the last decade or so(available at the site I provided you), you'll find very few Albanian, or even Balkan names. While they may be difficult to place, the names even remotely similar to Albanian are still far and few between. The human smuggling- and its intercorrelated sex racket- seems to be dominated by Asians, Russians and Indo-Asian groups. I'm sure you, and Vostok will both agree that Russian surnames, and Albanian surnames are nothing alike.

Depends. Albanians from former Yugoslavia have names like Kadriovski which could very easily be mistaken for Russian or Serbian. Like Roko Berisic for example. He was one of the people on the group's indictment but his name sounds Serbian.

I will take a look at that site. See if I can dig anything up

Daut Kadriovski...that name sounds familiar, real life wise.. :/

[alexalonso]

La Cosa Nostra members have to pay tributes to the boss but what's an good estimate of the percentage and also what about other groups like the Russian Mob,Irish Mob,Albanian Mob,etc.

an envelope full of C-notes.

[Dobre]

La Cosa Nostra members have to pay tributes to the boss but what's an good estimate of the percentage and also what about other groups like the Russian Mob,Irish Mob,Albanian Mob,etc.

Depends. It really varies. It can go from cash to international wire transfers. I've even seen people deal in products. Instead of cash, they pay eachother in product - for example guns, drugs, humans, cars, property, anything commercial - if you can't pay in cash. It takes advantage of the rules of loan sharking. The OC world in certain countries nowadays is completely flexible because alot of people get themselves in the situation where you can't always pay in money. Most loan sharks will come into your house and take property while you can come up with the money(if they're greedy and you're a junky, but if you know people and know what you're doing they won't be as greedy, they'll be more humble if you offer them your plasma tv they'll take it and deduct that from the money you owe them) it ends up just being you having to sign your business(like the guy's restaurant in Goodfellas) to their name along with all the assets and equipment relating to it.

Hell, I've lent people money and when they couldn't pay me back in cash they paid me back in whatever product their business was dealing in. One guy used to pay me back in meat. Literally lol.. I had to buy an extra freezer just so I'd have a place where to keep all the frozen meats.

I like my BBQ foods, so I took advantage of every time he needed money. I got criticized for it in terms of strategic value - people kept saying I just ended up buying his product in all fairness...

But he always gave me an extra couple packages worth so technically he was paying back with interest. I didn't mind. The food was good.