Strongest Criminal Organisation in Europe.

[flame_guards_member1]

Keep in mind that after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, especially in the early 1990s, there was a crime and homicide boom as a result of mafia gangs claiming businesses, territory, etc.

Of course, now the number of murders have dropped trumendoulsy because the whole gang warfare thing, there's no reason for it even though daily automatic gun battles do happen in Moscow, but in the 1990s, there were literally thousands of mafia related homicides.

[thewestside]

it says here and i quote the exact words that "the albanian mafia, one of the most recent and effective organised criminal groups to reach across the world is also the product of an agrarian society."

and in most of the section under 'organised crime activities - exploiting the human condition, supplying the illicit, extortion and protection, and manipulating money' it talks about the albanians numerous times. they're actually the most mentioned in all of those categories.

then the book goes by organised crime groups.
-sicilian mafia
-other italian groups
-organised crime in britain
-the russian mafiya
-organised crime in albania
-yakuza
-triads and tongs
-american mafia
-outlaw motorcycle gangs
-mexican cartels
-yardies and posses
-medellin and cali cartels

That's interesting but the Albanian mob doesn't reach across the world. At least not in the same global sense as some other groups. And whether the Albanians are mentioned the most in the above categoriers or not, they'd only be near the top in "supplying the illicit."

i put them at number two because they're smart, control the biggest country in the world, (china which is like 20% of the world), they are everywhere. europe america, asia.

A lot of criminal groups are smart. As flameguards pointed out, the Triads do not control China. Neither do the mainland Chinese crime groups.

i put the russians first because they are more effective than the chinks, they operate in numerous coutnries too and have a bigger criminal subculture then chinese people do. when peopel think russians now a days they either think of alchoholics, mafia or prostitute.

It could also be said that the Italians are more effective than the Chinese and operate in numerous countries. Considering the Triads have about 100,000 members, I don't think anyone has a bigger criminal subculture. The Japanese Yakuza comes close with 90,000. Russian organized crime groups might number half of that at most. Even the Italian Mafia has "only" 20,000 to 25,000 members.

the italians i put in third well just because i think they're third.

Well you sold me with that explantion.

the albanians i put in forth because they are everywhere despite what anyone says. they're in every european country, south america, america, canada, australlia (not to a big effect). and work with pretty much all criminal groups around the world.

the albanian mafia is also the newest out of those four. in 20 years ill be able to put the albanians in the first spot.

You need to quit overstating the position of the Albanians. They are in many, but not every, European country. They have limited contacts to a degree in South America. There are small groups in the United States and Canada, mostly not connected to the more powerful Albanian groups in Europe. And very limited presence in Australia isn't even a factor yet. Albanians are international, but not global. Both the Colombians and the Mexicans could be said to be more powerful than the Albanians right now. And what exactly will enable the Albanians to surpass everyone else for the top spot in 20 years?

Ok I'm a little confused here...

Do the Triads have the same type of initiation thing that officially makes you a member like the Italians? By this I mean Triad associates can be comparable to Italian mafia associates? Can only a pure Chinese join the Triads? What's the deal here?

The Triads have their own initiation but it's often not used anymore. An associate is pretty much the same thing no matter what criminal group you are talking about. They are someone who works along side or for the organization in some capacity but is not formally inducted. Italian Mafia associates don't have to be Italian and Chinese Triad associates dont' have to be Chinese. Although the Japanese Yakuza have some members who are not Japanese (usually Korean or other Asian countries), I've never heard of the Triads inducting non-Chinese or at least non-Asians.

I will thank you if you wouldnt talk of Russians OC.

Right, only you can talk about Russian organized crime.

[Carmelo_Sicily]

no teekay i never said the albanians were below the italians and russians in europe. read my statements over carefully. i said in the global ranks, i would put the russians and italians before the albanians.

global ranks:
>russians
>chinese
>italians
>albanians

euro ranks:
>albanians
>russians
>italians

remember this thread is about europe not the global ranks.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you put the Chinese at #2 in global rankings?

i put them at number two because they're smart, control the biggest country in the world, (china which is like 20% of the world), they are everywhere. europe america, asia.

i put the russians first because they are more effective than the chinks, they operate in numerous coutnries too and have a bigger criminal subculture then chinese people do. when peopel think russians now a days they either think of alchoholics, mafia or prostitute.

the italians i put in third well just because i think they're third.

the albanians i put in forth because they are everywhere despite what anyone says. they're in every european country, south america, america, canada, australlia (not to a big effect). and work with pretty much all criminal groups around the world.

the albanian mafia is also the newest out of those four. in 20 years ill be able to put the albanians in the first spot.

No...no you won't. There's no change in Italy with OC, the guys in Calabria will not just hand over their domination of the heroin trade to the albanians. The Camorra is too crazy, and I have yet to see what the Albanians do that is more brutal than them. No albanian group has ever waged a war like the one that was waged in Sicily when Toto Riina took over. In 20 years they will still be number 4. In america they will not become the most poweful either, because once the US LCN is on its last legs (will be a while before that) then you will still have the Sicilian factions of LCN operating as well as Russians, Chinese, Koreans, Mexican, Colombian, Puerto Rican etc. fighting for control, but none of these groups can take the top spot like LCN did with control of the unions. All they can control is the blue collar crimes like gambling, loan sharking etc and some fraud. They won't have the same connections the Italians had, because once the FBI moves in to arrest the Italians, they're gonna make whatever union the mob was in almost impossible to penetrate again.

[Faciulina]

if i should do a list I'd put the italian mafia at number 1 for several reasons

1) it's the most organized and the most complete: it has vertical structure in sicily, clan-basic structure in calabria, and flexible-structure in naples and all the main mafia groups meet each other

2) it's the richest (100-150 billions for year) controlling 80% of cocaine in europe, a large part of weapons and cannabis trafficking and a smaller of heroin, add all te other business like extortions, public works, frauds, gambling, bets etc....

3) it's the oldest

4) it's the most violent, if you add all the mafia murders in south Italy in the latest 25 years it killed more than all the other mafias togheter except maybe the colombian Farc but they are a paramilitary group, not a mafia; nowadays in naples in 1 year there are more mafia-murders than the whole albania and look at what they did in germany last august, i've never heard about a similar slaughter done by albanian or russian mafia in europe, so who are the most violent, the albanians? the russians? don't make me laugh please...

in north italy the albanians are NOTHING nowadays, maybe they were something in 1990s, according to police they were replaced by romanians in the latest years, ahahahah how do you want to replace the italian mafia in new york if you are replaced by some gangs of 20 years-old romanians? and anyway if they are so violent, because i've never heard of slaughters committed by albanians in north italy or even in europe? in north italy i heard just a few murders in 10 years committed by albanians, the terroni, the south italians committed much more murders in a month than albanians in 10 years in north italy
I'm saying that not because i'm against albanians, but just it's the reality
concerning the russians, i don't understand how you make them so important, they are nothing compared to italians and even compared to kosovars, who are the real though guys in the balkans, not the albanians who are nothing, the kosovars are strong because they are paramilitary not because they have a mafia
i think the russians have not mafia, just several etnich gangs like chechens, ukranians, georgians etc..... russia is to wild to have a mafia
albania could because is smart, it has 4 millions people like sicily, calabria has 2 millions and naples 1 million, so when you say italy has 60 millions it mean nothing because north italy NEVER HAVE HAD a mafia, so you must count only the southern and the southern have a huge mobster pro-capita, more than albanians
the albanians are strong only in greece because there is not a local mafia, where there are the italian mafia they are submitted like the russians, and you can easily see it in new york
than stop saying BS and say the truth

[thewestside]

it's the most violent, if you add all the mafia murders in south Italy in the latest 25 years it killed more than all the other mafias togheter except maybe the colombian Farc but they are a paramilitary group, not a mafia; nowadays in naples in 1 year there are more mafia-murders than the whole albania and look at what they did in germany last august, i've never heard about a similar slaughter done by albanian or russian mafia in europe, so who are the most violent, the albanians? the russians? don't make me laugh please...

If you look at it in terms of the last 25 years, then yes, the Italian Mafia has been one of the most violent crime syndicates in the world. However, in that same 25 year period, the Colombian cartels were even somewhat more so. The picture changes is if you look at it in terms of the last 10-15 years. Both the Italians and Colombians are nowhere near as violent as they used to be. And that is not necessarily a weakness. Both groups made good their claim in blood, including going up against their own countries' governments. They are now well established and are more sophisticated, having to use violence less. In that same 10-15 year period, newer groups like the Mexicans, Russians, and Albanians have been more violent because they have had to establish themselves the same way the Italians and Colombians did before hand.

in north italy the albanians are NOTHING nowadays, maybe they were something in 1990s, according to police they were replaced by romanians in the latest years, ahahahah how do you want to replace the italian mafia in new york if you are replaced by some gangs of 20 years-old romanians? and anyway if they are so violent, because i've never heard of slaughters committed by albanians in north italy or even in europe? in north italy i heard just a few murders in 10 years committed by albanians, the terroni, the south italians committed much more murders in a month than albanians in 10 years in north italy
I'm saying that not because i'm against albanians, but just it's the reality

The Albanians certainly haven't "taken over" things in Northern Italy as some believe, but they are still a force to be reckoned with. In the criminal pecking order in Northern Italy, the Italians natuarly come first. But the Albanians are second.

concerning the russians, i don't understand how you make them so important, they are nothing compared to italians and even compared to kosovars, who are the real though guys in the balkans, not the albanians who are nothing, the kosovars are strong because they are paramilitary not because they have a mafia
i think the russians have not mafia, just several etnich gangs like chechens, ukranians, georgians etc..... russia is to wild to have a mafia
albania could because is smart, it has 4 millions people like sicily, calabria has 2 millions and naples 1 million, so when you say italy has 60 millions it mean nothing because north italy NEVER HAVE HAD a mafia, so you must count only the southern and the southern have a huge mobster pro-capita, more than albanians
the albanians are strong only in greece because there is not a local mafia, where there are the italian mafia they are submitted like the russians, and you can easily see it in new york

Russia most assuredly does have a Mafia and you are vastly underrating them. It's true that some Eastern European groups are mistaken for the Russian mob when they are not. However, there are strong links between the Russian and Eastern European groups, and the Russians are the strongest group in Eastern Europe. And the Albanians certainly aren't nothing. They are far and away the strongest group in the Balkans. They aren't on the level of the Italians or Russians but they are on the rise.

[Faciulina]

mostly of the balkan route is controlled by the kosovar KLA, not the so-called albanian mafia, i think the albanian mafia doesn't exist, there are clans but they are not a monolith like the south italian mafias, the strongest albanian groups are from shkoder in north albania and the albanian/kosovar KLA, that's because I said the real though guys are the albanian/kosovars
concerning the violence, I repat again, nowadays in 1 year in naples only there are more mafia murders than the whole albania, and even some albanian guys told me about that, they told me that naples is more violent than albania, but anyway you're right the fact there are too many murders mean nothing, in country like venezuela or south africa, the most violent in the world, there are 150 murders for 100.000 inhabitans, but they have not a local mafia
concerning the russians, tell me how can be the most powerful in europe if italians control 80% of cocaine and kosovars 80% of heroin, the 60% of weapons pass through south italian portes controlled by the italian mafia, the cannabis are controlled mostly by south italians and kosovars, so what do they control? the fact they stolen cars in finland or spain or they own some night clubs in czech republich of in greece it means they are powerful? please don't tell me they control atomic bombs or BS like that, they are controlled by putin not by the so-called russian mafia, the russian mafia is just a myth, I bet that in 10 years what it is left fo them will disappear because in russia there is a sort of dictatorship, there are strong chechens or georgian clans, but however they are not a monolith like cosa nostra
the only group that can become more strong in the future are the kosovars, they are the only, but they are paramilitary groups not mafia

[Faciulina]

anyway thats my euro ranks

1) southern italians
2) albanian/kosovars
3) turkish
4) nigerians
5) russians (chechens, georgians)
6) chineses

[thewestside]

mostly of the balkan route is controlled by the kosovar KLA, not the so-called albanian mafia, i think the albanian mafia doesn't exist, there are clans but they are not a monolith like the south italian mafias, the strongest albanian groups are from shkoder in north albania and the albanian/kosovar KLA, that's because I said the real though guys are the albanian/kosovars
concerning the violence, I repat again, nowadays in 1 year in naples only there are more mafia murders than the whole albania, and even some albanian guys told me about that, they told me that naples is more violent than albania, but anyway you're right the fact there are too many murders mean nothing, in country like venezuela or south africa, the most violent in the world, there are 150 murders for 100.000 inhabitans, but they have not a local mafia
concerning the russians, tell me how can be the most powerful in europe if italians control 80% of cocaine and kosovars 80% of heroin, the 60% of weapons pass through south italian portes controlled by the italian mafia, the cannabis are controlled mostly by south italians and kosovars, so what do they control? the fact they stolen cars in finland or spain or they own some night clubs in czech republich of in greece it means they are powerful? please don't tell me they control atomic bombs or BS like that, they are controlled by putin not by the so-called russian mafia, the russian mafia is just a myth, I bet that in 10 years what it is left fo them will disappear because in russia there is a sort of dictatorship, there are strong chechens or georgian clans, but however they are not a monolith like cosa nostra
the only group that can become more strong in the future are the kosovars, they are the only, but they are paramilitary groups not mafia

You need to do more research on Russian organized crime. Read about some of the larger and more powerful Russian syndicates like the Solntsevskaya, Izmailovskaya, and Tambov groups. They control extensive criminal operations in Russia, Europe, and other places around the globe, as well as whole sectors of Russia's legitimate economy. Russia is Europe's largest heroin market. The Russians are the largest arms traffickers in the world. They are among the most adept at major financial frauds, money laundering, and infiltration of legitimate businesses. They run huge human trafficking and prostitution rings. On a global scale, the Russians are the only group that are as widespread as the Italians.

[Faciulina]

the fact is that to do a research on russian organized crime groups it's like to do a research on nothing, you read tons of dates withouth any sources like 3 millions members, 500 billions of illicit business and BS like that, there is not any real fact, the groups like the solntsevskaya, izmailovskaya or the other etnich groups like chechens and georgians are not a monolith, the russian mafia doesn't exist, i bet that just one main italian group like cosa nostra, ndrangheta or camorra is stronger than all the russian mafia groups together, that's because the italians are a monolith and the russians no, it is not the truth that the russians control weapons trafficking, in europe it's controlled by the 'ndrangheta, according to spanish police the 'ndrangheta sold to al-qaeda the explosive for the attacks in madrid, the camorra controls a large part of the weapons trafficking in south america and cosa nostra in africa, you have no idea what they control, italy is the first productor of guns and rifles in the world, do you know it? russian is not the largest market of heroin in europe that's western europe, and anyway the heroin is down now the cocaine is the best drug nowadays and it is controlled by the ndrangheta and cosa nostra, anyway i know the chechens are very strong, i saw them in greece where they are called rossopondi, but i think the albanians are stronger than russians too because they are more compact although they are not a monolith

[united]

The Russian mafia is much smarter then any of these groups you have mentioned.

[thewestside]

the fact is that to do a research on russian organized crime groups it's like to do a research on nothing, you read tons of dates withouth any sources like 3 millions members, 500 billions of illicit business and BS like that, there is not any real fact, the groups like the solntsevskaya, izmailovskaya or the other etnich groups like chechens and georgians are not a monolith, the russian mafia doesn't exist, i bet that just one main italian group like cosa nostra, ndrangheta or camorra is stronger than all the russian mafia groups together, that's because the italians are a monolith and the russians no, it is not the truth that the russians control weapons trafficking, in europe it's controlled by the 'ndrangheta, according to spanish police the 'ndrangheta sold to al-qaeda the explosive for the attacks in madrid, the camorra controls a large part of the weapons trafficking in south america and cosa nostra in africa, you have no idea what they control, italy is the first productor of guns and rifles in the world, do you know it? russian is not the largest market of heroin in europe that's western europe, and anyway the heroin is down now the cocaine is the best drug nowadays and it is controlled by the ndrangheta and cosa nostra, anyway i know the chechens are very strong, i saw them in greece where they are called rossopondi, but i think the albanians are stronger than russians too because they are more compact although they are not a monolith

I am not arguing who is stronger between the Italians and Russians. But I'll say it again, there certainly is a Russian Mafia, i.e. there are Russian organized crime groups just like there are Italian crime groups. The Italian Mafia is not a single organization. It is composed of four major syndicates - Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, Sacra Corona Unita. But even those individual syndicates are not single organizations, but are composed of numerous clans or families. The major Russian syndicates are organized differently. They are like Chinese Triad or Japanese Yakuza groups, in that they are umbrella organizations for a number of smaller criminal groups. The Russians don't control arms trafficking everywhere but, on the whole, they are the biggest arms traffickers in the world. And Russia is indeed Europe's largest market for heroin. And the Russians are far more powerful than any Eastern European crime group, be it the Chechens, Albanians, etc. There is plenty of official, reliable information on Russian organized crime if you know the right sources. Read the International Crime Threat Assessment, the International Narcotics Control Strategy Report, European Organized Crime Reports, etc.

[Faciulina]

naaaaaa... thewestside, cosa nostra is a monolith both in usa and sicily, everybody knows it, the russian mafia never was a monolith, it's formed by hundreds of gangs of even different etnich groups from chechens to armenians, you're right that the italian mafia is divided into 4 main organizations but they are all connected each other and even the ndrangheta and camorra that have not a pyramidal structure like cosa nostra are formed by clans, families all connected each other, that's a different thing... no offense but the europe organized crime report talks about gangs stoling cars and they call them mafia, they have no idea what mafia is, i think the so-called russian mafia was too overestimated in 1990s, but that chaos was more because of the collapse of communism than mafia, but anyway i think the chechens groups are very strong

[thewestside]

naaaaaa... thewestside, cosa nostra is a monolith both in usa and sicily, everybody knows it, the russian mafia never was a monolith, it's formed by hundreds of gangs of even different etnich groups from chechens to armenians, you're right that the italian mafia is divided into 4 main organizations but they are all connected each other and even the ndrangheta and camorra that have not a pyramidal structure like cosa nostra are formed by clans, families all connected each other, that's a different thing... no offense but the europe organized crime report talks about gangs stoling cars and they call them mafia, they have no idea what mafia is, i think the so-called russian mafia was too overestimated in 1990s, but that chaos was more because of the collapse of communism than mafia, but anyway i think the chechens groups are very strong

You keep using this word "monolith." What exactly do you mean by that?


Russian Organized Crime - Global Organized Crime Project (1997)
http://www.russianlaw.org/roc_csis.pdf.

International Crime Threat Assessment (2000)
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/htm ... p3.html#r5

The Threat of Russian Organized Crime (2001)
http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles1/nij/187085.txt

FBI testimony before Congress (2003)
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress03/ashley103003.htm

Russian Organized Crime
http://www.russianlaw.org/ROC.htm

Russian Organized Crime Syndicates
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/RussianOrgCrime.pdf.

Russian Organized Crime
http://www.csis.org/index.php?option=co ... iew&id=706

[Faciulina]

"There is no apparent supreme hierarchy among Russian organized crime groups, nor is any one group masterminding the activities of the others. Instead, Russian criminal organizations have their own spheres of influence that are generally defined by geography, ethnicity, and, in some cases, specific criminal activity" well, that's what i said before, the cosa nostra has a permanent commission of bosses and a boss of bosses and it is the most powerful because of that but even for other reasons... anyway, if the so-called russian mafia is so strong because its most important bosses are caught abroad? in south italy the bosses stay at large even for 40 years, they needn't going abroad because they know they will never be caught in their homeland, it means that the russians criminal groups don't control their homeland so well

[Sibirian Mofo]

naaaaaa... thewestside, cosa nostra is a monolith both in usa and sicily, everybody knows it, the russian mafia never was a monolith

Everybody knows that? who is everybody? the US media? the FBI?.. funny thing is that they all consider the Russians a far greater threat than the italians - that is a fact.

no offense but the europe organized crime report talks about gangs stoling cars and they call them mafia, they have no idea what mafia is, i think the so-called russian mafia was too overestimated in 1990s

non taken, you're right.. there are many reports regarding car thefts.. that proves that the russians (and serbs/bosnians maybe i dont know..) are opportunistic and nothing is too big or small for them - which is why they are doing well.

No idea what mafia is? hmm.. I suppose you have an idea on what is a "mafia"? this is like the english sentence "the student has surpassed the master" I will explain.. the italians started the whole general field of organized crime and then the newer groups (Russians and even the albanians) rose up and are now more influencial and successful than the italians. So.. if they have no idea what a mafia is.. how come they do better than people who "do" know what a mafia is ?
And you are right.. chechens are a strong group in the russian underworld.




The italian mafia is DYING, they were once the top dogs of the world of OC but that time is OVER, finito, the russian mafia has way more influence than the italians in a number of areas: money, connections in the government, areas of work - by that I mean they do more diverse activaties than the italians and even plane old muscle if you want to go that far.

"There is no apparent supreme hierarchy among Russian organized crime groups, nor is any one group masterminding the activities of the others. Instead, Russian criminal organizations have their own spheres of influence that are generally defined by geography, ethnicity, and, in some cases, specific criminal activity" well, that's what i said before, the cosa nostra has a permanent commission of bosses and a boss of bosses and it is the most powerful because of that

Yea.. that's why the "godfather" was caught in sicily a year ago, an his son I think. BTW.. FBI sais that this exact fact that Russians dont have an apparent set hierarchy is what makes them so hard to bring down.

[thewestside]

"There is no apparent supreme hierarchy among Russian organized crime groups, nor is any one group masterminding the activities of the others. Instead, Russian criminal organizations have their own spheres of influence that are generally defined by geography, ethnicity, and, in some cases, specific criminal activity" well, that's what i said before, the cosa nostra has a permanent commission of bosses and a boss of bosses and it is the most powerful because of that but even for other reasons... anyway, if the so-called russian mafia is so strong because its most important bosses are caught abroad? in south italy the bosses stay at large even for 40 years, they needn't going abroad because they know they will never be caught in their homeland, it means that the russians criminal groups don't control their homeland so well

Yes, Russian organized crime groups are usually organized differently than Italian organized groups. They are not as hierarchial as, for instance, the Sicilian Mafia. But you could say the same thing about the 'Ndrangheta. The Russians operate abroad because they are a global crime syndicate, not because they don't control their homeland so well. They are extremely powerful in Russia. And if you haven't been paying attention, Italian bosses have been getting arrested right and left over the last few years, including Corleonesi leader and boss of bosses Bernardo Provenzano in April 2006, Pagliarelli boss Antonio Rotolo and over 50 others the following June in Operation Gotha, and San Lorenzo boss Salvatore Lo Piccolo in November 2007. Top Camorra boss Edoardo Contini was captured the following December. And top 'Ndrangheta boss Pasquale Condello was captured this last February.

Everybody knows that? who is everybody? the US media? the FBI?.. funny thing is that they all consider the Russians a far greater threat than the italians - that is a fact.

In some areas, yes, in other areas no they don't.

No idea what mafia is? hmm.. I suppose you have an idea on what is a "mafia"? this is like the english sentence "the student has surpassed the master" I will explain.. the italians started the whole general field of organized crime and then the newer groups (Russians and even the albanians) rose up and are now more influencial and successful than the italians.

While the Russians are as entrenched in Russia as the Italians are in Italy, and operate on the same global scale, they are not necessarily more influential and successful than the Italians. And the Albanians are not on the level of either group.

The italian mafia is DYING, they were once the top dogs of the world of OC but that time is OVER, finito, the russian mafia has way more influence than the italians in a number of areas: money, connections in the government, areas of work - by that I mean they do more diverse activaties than the italians and even plane old muscle if you want to go that far.

The American LCN is in a slow decline, as it has been for decades now. However, the families in New York, and to a lesser extent in some other cities will be around for some time to come. On the other hand, the international Italian syndicates - Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, Sacra Corona Unita - are still among the most powerful criminal groups in the world.

[Sibirian Mofo]

While the Russians are as entrenched in Russia as the Italians are in Italy, and operate on the same global scale, they are not necessarily more influential and successful than the Italians. And the Albanians are not on the level of either group.

I think they are more successful because of the simple fact that they did more in their 30 years of existence than the Italian mafia did in 100. I think they are more influential.. you can say that they control Russia, fact is that they control more than 50% of its economy.. I don't remember hearing or seeing something like that on the Italians at present.

In some areas, yes, in other areas no they don't.

You seem like you are in the few who know what they are talking about, can you bring me example of what u said? in what areas they don't?

[JohnnyRed]

siberian he cant, he still thinks its 1962 where italians run everything. russian made a far greater impact than the italians in there 30 years then italians in 120 plus.


albanians are on the same level of both groups. and like siberian said surpassed the italians. sorry spaghetti groupie.

[Faciulina]

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

[Sibirian Mofo]

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

All of what u just said of the Italian mafia you should have said on the Russian mafia. Italians are the ones who are going to disappear, thye are in europr (by that I mean western Europe a little and Italy) and US, other than that they got a small and insignificant presence in other places.
The areas you claim the italians control are actually controlled by the Russians, you say Columbians? they're just like the italians, a little stronger but now weaker than ever. The 5 New York fam's used Albanians as muscle and now.. the muscle had taken over (that's what i've heard) Dont control their homeland? Russian OC is the country's main import-export lol.
may god help the italians (R.I.P)

[Faciulina]

All of what u just said of the Italian mafia you should have said on the Russian mafia. Italians are the ones who are going to disappear, thye are in europr (by that I mean western Europe a little and Italy) and US, other than that they got a small and insignificant presence in other places.
The areas you claim the italians control are actually controlled by the Russians, you say Columbians? they're just like the italians, a little stronger but now weaker than ever. The 5 New York fam's used Albanians as muscle and now.. the muscle had taken over (that's what i've heard) Dont control their homeland? Russian

no offense sibirian mofo, but i bet that the so-called russian mafia will disappear in 10 years, the italian mafia never will disappear it can be key-low at least but it is always present and powerful, the colombians cartel are gone you're right the farc and auc control the cocaine together with the italians and the colombians are still strong believe in me, of course some etnich groups like chechens and georgians will survive but as domestic groups, the chechens are the only russian group well organized, the others are too disorganized to survive... the russian bosses seem to be just businessmen or oligarch now, but they have not a real mafia structure, the principal charateristic of the italian mafia is the LONGETIVITY, so we will see in 10-15 years if i'm wrong or right, i bet that in 15 years the russian oc disappear and the italian mafia will be still alive and strong, i'm sorry for you and your great russian mafia, it's a myth of middle 1990s, we are in 2008 now, take the facts

[thewestside]

I think they are more successful because of the simple fact that they did more in their 30 years of existence than the Italian mafia did in 100. I think they are more influential.. you can say that they control Russia, fact is that they control more than 50% of its economy.. I don't remember hearing or seeing something like that on the Italians at present.

I agree that, due to a number of political, social, and economic facts, Russian organized crime evolved quickly into one of the most powerful forces in international organized crime. Italian organized crime evolved more steadily into an international force during the 20th century. However, the fact that the Russians developed more quickly does not, in an of itself, make them "more successful" than the Italians. You have to remember that the Italians benefit from having been entrenched for so long.

The Russian mob does not control 50% of Russia's economy. The Italian Mafia is said to make up between 3% and 10% of Italy's GDP. Russian organized crime is probably on a similar scale - high single digits or low double digits.

You seem like you are in the few who know what they are talking about, can you bring me example of what u said? in what areas they don't?

The two main areas that are the biggest priority for law enforcement in regards to Russian organized crime are political corruption and arms trafficking. Because of Russia's strong position on the international scene, corruption by Russian organized crime has the potential to be a major threat. Likewise, there has long been the concern that Russian crime groups could get access to nuclear weapons, which could be sold on the black market, including to terrorist groups.

siberian he cant, he still thinks its 1962 where italians run everything. russian made a far greater impact than the italians in there 30 years then italians in 120 plus.

First of all, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't answer for me. Second, I have never said the Italians run everything. You know that so quit making up lies. Third, as I said in another post, although the Russians developed more quickly, that does not mean they have had an overall bigger impact than the Italians.

albanians are on the same level of both groups. and like siberian said surpassed the italians. sorry spaghetti groupie.

Once again, the Albanians are not on the same level of either group. And you have a lot of nerve calling anyone else a "groupie." The only groupie here is you. Anyone and everyone who has read your posts knows that.

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

The Italian Mafia in America is in a slow decline. There is no denying that. However, the Italian syndicates are still among the most powerful groups in international organized crime.

Faciulina, you really need to quit saying the Russian mob "is nothing." It's simply not true and it makes you look uninformed. Like the Italians, Russian organized crime is one of the most powerful forces in international organized crime. The Russians are the only group that operate on the same global scale as the Italians.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading your posts, but it gets old having to correct you. I already have to do that enough with Johnny Red.

All of what u just said of the Italian mafia you should have said on the Russian mafia. Italians are the ones who are going to disappear, thye are in europr (by that I mean western Europe a little and Italy) and US, other than that they got a small and insignificant presence in other places.
The areas you claim the italians control are actually controlled by the Russians, you say Columbians? they're just like the italians, a little stronger but now weaker than ever. The 5 New York fam's used Albanians as muscle and now.. the muscle had taken over (that's what i've heard) Dont control their homeland? Russian OC is the country's main import-export lol.
may god help the italians (R.I.P)

As I said above, it is the American LCN that is in a slow decline and will eventually fade away over time. Some families already have. However, the New York families and some others will be around for some time to come. For the record, the "muscle" (Albanians) have not taken over.

As I also said above, the Italian syndicates - Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, Sacra Corona Unita - are not in a decline. They are among the most wealthy, powerful, and entrenched crime groups in the world. The Italians are the most powerful group in Western Europe, the Russians are the most powerful group in Eastern Europe. However, both groups operate throughout the continent. The Italians launder money in Russia and the Russians launder money in Italy. They have their own territories, both in Europe and on the international scene, and don't fight.

Lastly, don't underestimate the Colombians. It is true they have scaled back their operations over the last decade. But that has been by design. Because of their geographic position, the Colombians will always control the supply of the world's cocaine, as well as much of the western hemisphere's heroin and marijuana. They have chosen to allow the Mexicans to take control of the more dangerous smuggling and wholesale operations in the U.S. so they themselves can avoid law enforcement. It's the smart move in the long term. Nevertheless, Colombians still operate in parts of the U.S. (mainly the Northeast and Florida), as well as Canada, Europe, and Australia.

no offense sibirian mofo, but i bet that the so-called russian mafia will disappear in 10 years, the italian mafia never will disappear it can be key-low at least but it is always present and powerful, the colombians cartel are gone you're right the farc and auc control the cocaine together with the italians and the colombians are still strong believe in me, of course some etnich groups like chechens and georgians will survive but as domestic groups, the chechens are the only russian group well organized, the others are too disorganized to survive... the russian bosses seem to be just businessmen or oligarch now, but they have not a real mafia structure, the principal charateristic of the italian mafia is the LONGETIVITY, so we will see in 10-15 years if i'm wrong or right, i bet that in 15 years the russian oc disappear and the italian mafia will be still alive and strong, i'm sorry for you and your great russian mafia, it's a myth of middle 1990s, we are in 2008 now, take the facts

Russian organized crime isn't going anywhere, just as Italian organized crime will not disappear.

And, for the record, the Norte del Valle (North Valley) cartel is still the most powerful group in Colombia. More powerful than either FARC or AUC, who both have worked for the cartel as hired muscle and for the protection of drug shipments.

[TeeKay]

siberian he cant, he still thinks its 1962 where italians run everything. russian made a far greater impact than the italians in there 30 years then italians in 120 plus.


albanians are on the same level of both groups. and like siberian said surpassed the italians. sorry spaghetti groupie.

lol look who comes back and backs up the russians when this was the same guy who said "russians are nothing" and that "albanians are more powerful"

[Faciulina]

i doubt the lcn is on decline, not in new york, look at the gambino's they are very strong and they have strong links with the sicilians and the latest fbi operations against them showed it, maybe they are not powerful as they used to be, but that's enough to be the strongest today, the emergent groups are not so strong as you claim, the russians had a big impact because of their huge diaspora like the albanians, not because of mafia, the southern italians had a diaspora in the past too, but they don't need diaspora to be strong, anyway the south italian economy is very bad today and probably we will see a new diaspora in 10 years so they probably will strenght the smaller lcn families that are on decline...

[thewestside]

i doubt the lcn is on decline, not in new york, look at the gambino's they are very strong and they have strong links with the sicilians and the latest fbi operations against them showed it, maybe they are not powerful as they used to be, but that's enough to be the strongest today, the emergent groups are not so strong as you claim, the russians had a big impact because of their huge diaspora like the albanians, not because of mafia, the southern italians had a diaspora in the past too, but they don't need diaspora to be strong, anyway the south italian economy is very bad today and probably we will see a new diaspora in 10 years so they probably will strenght the smaller lcn families that are on decline...

There is no denying the Amercian LCN is in decline. It has essentially been in decline after hitting it's collective peak in the 1950's and 1960's. Any number of factors have been involved in this. Law enforcement investigations, the RICO Act, political and labor union reform, industry regulation, the breakdown of discipline and Omerta, informants entering the Witness Protection Program, competition from other crime groups, smaller recruiting pools, general attrition, and so on.

Of course, the level of decline varies according to the specific area and family. The smaller families in cities like Dallas, Denver, San Francisco, and San Jose are extinct. The Buffalino family in Northeast Pennsylvania reportedly has one member left - William D'Elia. New Orleans has maybe a few at most. Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Tampa, and Los Angeles have 5-10 members remaining. Cleveland, Kansas City, and Milwaukee have perhaps 15-20 members each. Buffalo has about 30-35.

New York remains the highest LCN priority for law enforcement, the five families continuing to be a significant organized crime threat. This is due to their size (anywhere from 100-200 members each), their level of sophistication, diversity in both illegal activities and legitimate businesses, etc. New York is basically the last area where there is still substanial union control by the mob and labor racketeering activity. However, there continues to be "residual union influence" in some other areas of the country.

Besides New York, the five other areas/families that still have considerable LCN activity are New England (40-50 members), New Jersey (40-50 members), Philadelphia (50 members), Chicago (50 members), and Detroit (30-45 members).

One of the best and most accurate reports on the current state of La Cosa Nostra in the U.S. can be found at the link below -

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/218555.pdf.

[Faciulina]

i don't know how many members left the smaller families have, anyway you must include the associates, the associates are ACTIVE members, when you talk about other crime syndicates and you claim they have 50 or 100.000 members they are both made members (if they have) and associates, when you talk about italian mafia you only include the made members
there is no way chicago has 50 members, they have at least 100 made members and over 1.000 associates, so about 1.100 members, detroit has 25-30 made members and over 200 associates, so all the others, even the small families like tampa have 10-15 made members and over 100 associates... and i didn't talk about the sicilian mafia in usa that it has over 3.000 members

[TeeKay]

Chicago in 1997 was reported to have 70 made members making a core group,although the outfit has a large number of associates (1000 - 1200 est) that make up their workforce.

[JohnnyRed]

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

first of all stop using the word kosovar. its shqiptar*** or in english its just albanian. but i get what your trying to say. albanians from kosove. i wouldnt say kosovars one because albanians dont identify themselves as kosovars not even the ones from kosove with some excepts here and there. and two because most of the bosses are from albania but our brothers who were outside current albania proper when communism took over [which is the reason the albanian mafia is so violent] were lucky enough to stay out and live freely and become entrenched in european crime.


second you see i dont want to call you ignorant or anything but you just said the albanian mafia never slaughtered anyone outside they're homeland. now if you lived in italy and in france like i dide you would know what type of slaughtering albanians have done and why italians hate our guts so much. one example that i could find on the net right now is when an albanian mob group killed 9 people in two weeks. i could tell you other things that i have heard myself but westside would hav a field day and say im bullshitting and say i go by what i hear and no data and so fourth lol his usual routine.


italians dont run most of the weapons in europe loool who told you that? albanians and russians do. russians dont own some domestics business and some prostitution rackets they own alot. i would agree with you though on one thing the albanians and italians are definently the top two in europe. albanians would be first though if it came down to it. heroin is a better business then cocaine in europe. albanians are more violent. and what the fuck would colombian prosecutors know about european organised crime man come on now. i can give you quotes from ITALIAN prosecutors that say albanians run shit on both sides of the adriatik.

[JohnnyRed]

All of what u just said of the Italian mafia you should have said on the Russian mafia. Italians are the ones who are going to disappear, thye are in europr (by that I mean western Europe a little and Italy) and US, other than that they got a small and insignificant presence in other places.
The areas you claim the italians control are actually controlled by the Russians, you say Columbians? they're just like the italians, a little stronger but now weaker than ever.


The 5 New York fam's used Albanians as muscle and now.. the muscle had taken over (that's what i've heard)

finalllllllly some one whose making sense. this guy just said italians control weapons in europe. that was the really funny part. how could they control weapons in a continent of 700 million people when they have no where to get weapons for themselves. albanians all have weapons, russians can get easy access to major weapons [the more established criminal groups in russia]

albanians did take over again i must remind you i live in new york i have a first hand look at what goes on here and i see the news everyday. westside takes alex rudaj to heart as if he even a little bit mirrored the face of albanian organised crime in america. in every report it says the albanians have earned there reputation for drugs and alex rudaj was 100% gambling. so how the fuck could he have been the strongest albanian criminal in america, but whatever i already gave westside thousands of links and articles, official articles give to the US embassy and stuff but he doesnt wanna listen hes too in love with the italian mafia. even though hes a dannish muffin i guess hes madce because worst they got there is drive by arguments.

[Carmelo_Sicily]

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

first of all stop using the word kosovar. its shqiptar*** or in english its just albanian. but i get what your trying to say. albanians from kosove. i wouldnt say kosovars one because albanians dont identify themselves as kosovars not even the ones from kosove with some excepts here and there. and two because most of the bosses are from albania but our brothers who were outside current albania proper when communism took over [which is the reason the albanian mafia is so violent] were lucky enough to stay out and live freely and become entrenched in european crime.


second you see i dont want to call you ignorant or anything but you just said the albanian mafia never slaughtered anyone outside they're homeland. now if you lived in italy and in france like i dide you would know what type of slaughtering albanians have done and why italians hate our guts so much. one example that i could find on the net right now is when an albanian mob group killed 9 people in two weeks. i could tell you other things that i have heard myself but westside would hav a field day and say im bullshitting and say i go by what i hear and no data and so fourth lol his usual routine.


italians dont run most of the weapons in europe loool who told you that? albanians and russians do. russians dont own some domestics business and some prostitution rackets they own alot. i would agree with you though on one thing the albanians and italians are definently the top two in europe. albanians would be first though if it came down to it. heroin is a better business then cocaine in europe. albanians are more violent. and what the fu-- would colombian prosecutors know about european organised crime man come on now. i can give you quotes from ITALIAN prosecutors that say albanians run shit on both sides of the adriatik.

Then give us the quotes that you already claim, and I will give you a quote that has already been said that NO albanians will EVER over power ANY italian group...will not happen...get it through your thick head you dipshit. Camorra would make the albanians shit themselves...I'm sorry....

too the rest of you russian boys and albanian boys that masturbate to your favorite russian mobster, shut up. you're not stating the facts. russians are powerful yeah. in the u.s., they hold more influence in the west coast, but as far as new york goes...last time I checked the Colombos were getting payments from the russians in brighton beach. as far as albanians go, they don't have shit in the u.s. they are still scratching off of the bottom and will for years to come. there's no way a group of 40 people (rudaj org) would ever be able to take on a group like the gambinos (200 members 1000 associates) in a war or move in on their turf. the only reason you guys are operating near them or anyone in sicily or italy or wherever, is because you are allowed to. end of fucking story.

in the u.s., the italian mafia will ALWAYS have the political connections, and no one else will for a long time. the italians have established their foot hold in the unions, and still to this day when you buy cement in new york or any form of construction you pay them. there are restaurants all over the east coast that pay to the mob because of certain food distribution companies owned by the mob. they are here, there are young guys coming up and they are not going anywhere for years. so shut up and grow up.

[Faciulina]

italian mafia is dying my ass, you should live in a dreamland to say that, russian mafia is nothing, mostly of europe organized crime is controlled by italians and kosovars, nothing also, ndrangheta is the number 1 in europe nowadays even the colombian procurators say it, russians run just domestic business and a bit prostitution and money laundering, the italians control the cocaine and kosovars the heroin, the italians also control mostly of weapons and a large part of the italian government and economy, yes bosses are caught in italy after 20-40 years at large the russian bosses don't control their homeland well if they are all caught anbroad, the russian mafia is going to die in the reality because putin is a sort of dictator and when there is a dictatorship the organized crime die, everybody knows it, i bet in 10-15 years the russian organized crime will disappear... the italian mafia is never down, although tons of indictements is too strong to be defeated although italy has the best police and anti-mafia laws in the world, it even survived the fascist dictatordhip led by mussolini, it's impossible to defeat it both in italy and usa, in usa cosa nostra is the most powerful group according to fbi although it is weaker than the past imagine if it was strong as the past.... the albanians are nothing in usa the russians have their business there but they are not so strong as you claim, the italian mafia is everywhere, europe, usa, canada, australia, south america, africa, everywhere and nobody can take over it, nor the goverments, nor the police, nor other crime groups, look at the ndrangheta did in germany last year, they fear nobody, they would win a war against every crime group, they are too violent and powerful, russian and albanian mafia never did slaughters outside theyr homeland

first of all stop using the word kosovar. its shqiptar*** or in english its just albanian. but i get what your trying to say. albanians from kosove. i wouldnt say kosovars one because albanians dont identify themselves as kosovars not even the ones from kosove with some excepts here and there. and two because most of the bosses are from albania but our brothers who were outside current albania proper when communism took over [which is the reason the albanian mafia is so violent] were lucky enough to stay out and live freely and become entrenched in european crime.


second you see i dont want to call you ignorant or anything but you just said the albanian mafia never slaughtered anyone outside they're homeland. now if you lived in italy and in france like i dide you would know what type of slaughtering albanians have done and why italians hate our guts so much. one example that i could find on the net right now is when an albanian mob group killed 9 people in two weeks. i could tell you other things that i have heard myself but westside would hav a field day and say im bullshitting and say i go by what i hear and no data and so fourth lol his usual routine.


italians dont run most of the weapons in europe loool who told you that? albanians and russians do. russians dont own some domestics business and some prostitution rackets they own alot. i would agree with you though on one thing the albanians and italians are definently the top two in europe. albanians would be first though if it came down to it. heroin is a better business then cocaine in europe. albanians are more violent. and what the fu-- would colombian prosecutors know about european organised crime man come on now. i can give you quotes from ITALIAN prosecutors that say albanians run shit on both sides of the adriatik.

it's logic that when i say kosovars i mean albanians from kosovo, they are the strongest among albanian groups togheter with the shkoder clans from north albania
i've never heard of any slaughter committed by albanian mafia across europe, of course single murders, but never slaughters like the ndrangheta did in germany, where happened 9 people killed in two weeks by albanian mafia? i've never heard about that too...
in north italy nobody cares of albanians anymore, they are against gypsies now, they are racist that's because of that, they hate the southern italians as they used to be since 1950s and the gypsies from romania nowadays
you believe it or not the italian mafia controls mostly of weapon trafficking across europe, 60% of weapons pass trough souther italian portes controlled by the mafia, italy is the first producer of guns do you know it? i mean beretta guns, rifle and similars... the camorra sell weapons even in south america, cosa nostra in africa, ndrangheta in europe, they sold al-qaeda the explosive for the madrid attack in 2002 and they supplie colombian guerrillas, al-qaeda and nigerians, of course albanians and russians have weapons trafficking but on a lower scale

[thewestside]

i don't know how many members left the smaller families have, anyway you must include the associates, the associates are ACTIVE members, when you talk about other crime syndicates and you claim they have 50 or 100.000 members they are both made members (if they have) and associates, when you talk about italian mafia you only include the made members
there is no way chicago has 50 members, they have at least 100 made members and over 1.000 associates, so about 1.100 members, detroit has 25-30 made members and over 200 associates, so all the others, even the small families like tampa have 10-15 made members and over 100 associates... and i didn't talk about the sicilian mafia in usa that it has over 3.000 members

In the Mafia, you have to differentiate between a made member and an associate. They are not the same.

In 1997 the Chicago Crime Commission estimated that the Outfit had about 70 members and 700-1,200 associates. But those were simply estimates. In recent years, several articles citing official sources have said the Outfit has about 50 members. And most recently, during the "Family Secrets" case, the FBI said the Outfit had about 30 members in the Chicago area, along with about 100 associates. Needless to say, there is some discrepency over just how many made members the Outfit has. Discrepencies regarding the number of associates is more understandable because it comes down to how one defines an associate. But someone is either a member or they are not. In any event, membership estimates on the high end are about 70, on the low end about 30, and so it evens out to an average estimate of 50 members.

Detroit has at least 30 members. However, an author I talk with sometimes who has law enforcement contacts in Detroit has said that the family has made a number of new members in recent years and it's membership may now be as high as 45. Although 200 associates might be possible, I'm not sure where you got that.

Another author who has written books on the Tampa family has said that there are 10-12 members left, although not all of them are active. And where did you get 100 associates for them?

As I said before, the FBI estimates that the four major Italian syndicates together have about 3,000 members and affiliates in the U.S. 2,500 for the Sicilian Mafia, 200 for the Camorra, 100-200 for the 'Ndrangheta, and perhaps a few for the Sacra Corona Unita.

i could tell you other things that i have heard myself but westside would hav a field day and say im bullshitting and say i go by what i hear and no data and so fourth lol his usual routine.

Hell Johnny, don't let me stop you. Offer up what you have. Just don't necessarily expect anyone to take what you heard as gospel.

italians dont run most of the weapons in europe loool who told you that? albanians and russians do. russians dont own some domestics business and some prostitution rackets they own alot. i would agree with you though on one thing the albanians and italians are definently the top two in europe. albanians would be first though if it came down to it. heroin is a better business then cocaine in europe. albanians are more violent. and what the fu-- would colombian prosecutors know about european organised crime man come on now. i can give you quotes from ITALIAN prosecutors that say albanians run shit on both sides of the adriatik.

As I've said many times, the Russians are the single biggest arms traffickers in both Europe and the world. That is a fact. The Albanians and Italians are also major arms traffickers, though I really couldn't say who was bigger between them. There have been instances where the Albanians have sold arms to the Italians and there have been instances where the Italians have sold arms to the Albanians. But it should also be remembered that in many cases the Italians and Albanians work together in joint operations involving arms trafficking and other crimes.

Just because heroin is a bigger business in Europe than cocaine is, that doesn't put the Albanians ahead of the Italians. Like the Russians, the Italians are involved in a much wider array of activities than the Albanians are, not just narcotics. Considering the every increasing "globalization" of organized crime, it would make sense that a Colombian prosector would know a lot about Albanian organized crime, just as an Albanian prosecutor might know a lot about Colombian organized crime. Finally, you have one quote from one article from one official that talks about the Albanians taking over things on both sides of the Adriatic. And needless to say, it was very much an overstatement. The Albanians are certainly powerful within the Balkans, and have a significant presence in Italy, but they don't run everything like you wish they did.

albanians did take over again i must remind you i live in new york i have a first hand look at what goes on here and i see the news everyday. westside takes alex rudaj to heart as if he even a little bit mirrored the face of albanian organised crime in america. in every report it says the albanians have earned there reputation for drugs and alex rudaj was 100% gambling. so how the fu-- could he have been the strongest albanian criminal in america, but whatever i already gave westside thousands of links and articles, official articles give to the US embassy and stuff but he doesnt wanna listen hes too in love with the italian mafia. even though hes a dannish muffin i guess hes madce because worst they got there is drive by arguments.

How many times have we been through this Johnny? The Albanians did not take over. The Rudaj gang temporarilly took control of a few gambling clubs before they were taken down in a federal indictment. And the only other example you have been able to give of Albanian organized crime in America is one international drug trafficker who is said to be hiding out in the New York or Philadelphia area. Hell, I've given more information on Albanian groups in the U.S. than you have. I've said that law enforcement has identified Albanian crime groups in about a dozen cities or so. They are usually small, tight-knit groups that revolve around one or a few central leaders. They are involved in a number of crimes, including gambling, money laundering, drug trafficking, human smuggling, extortion, intimidation, robbery, and murder. In a few cases, they have expanded into more sophisticated crimes like real estate fraud. While Albanian and other Balkan organized crime groups are an increasing concern to law enforcement, they are not yet on the same level as many others. They are certainly not in the top three in New York as you have contended many times.

too the rest of you russian boys and albanian boys that masturbate to your favorite russian mobster, shut up. you're not stating the facts. russians are powerful yeah. in the u.s., they hold more influence in the west coast, but as far as new york goes...last time I checked the Colombos were getting payments from the russians in brighton beach. as far as albanians go, they don't have shit in the u.s. they are still scratching off of the bottom and will for years to come. there's no way a group of 40 people (rudaj org) would ever be able to take on a group like the gambinos (200 members 1000 associates) in a war or move in on their turf. the only reason you guys are operating near them or anyone in sicily or italy or wherever, is because you are allowed to. end of #%@&#%@ story.

The Russians are considered to be the most powerful and significant organized crime threat in both New York and the U.S. after the Italian Mafia. The LCN collects a tax from some Russian mob operations in New York, in others it doesn't. In many cases, the two groups work together.

For the record, the Rudaj gang had a couple dozen members, not 40.

in the u.s., the italian mafia will ALWAYS have the political connections, and no one else will for a long time. the italians have established their foot hold in the unions, and still to this day when you buy cement in new york or any form of construction you pay them. there are restaurants all over the east coast that pay to the mob because of certain food distribution companies owned by the mob. they are here, there are young guys coming up and they are not going anywhere for years. so shut up and grow up.

There is still some political influence remaining in certain areas of the country, though it is localized and nowhere near what it was at the mob's peak. The LCN's remaining labor union influence is mainly in the New York/New Jersey area, though there is some "residual influence" in other parts of the country like New England, Pennsylvania, Florida, Illinois, Michigan, etc. But in the latter instances, it is mainly cases of corruption, not racketeering. However, you are right in that what sets the LCN apart from other crime groups is the level to which it has infiltrated the legitimate economy, especially in New York.

you believe it or not the italian mafia controls mostly of weapon trafficking across europe, 60% of weapons pass trough souther italian portes controlled by the mafia, italy is the first producer of guns do you know it? i mean beretta guns, rifle and similars... the camorra sell weapons even in south america, cosa nostra in africa, ndrangheta in europe, they sold al-qaeda the explosive for the madrid attack in 2002 and they supplie colombian guerrillas, al-qaeda and nigerians, of course albanians and russians have weapons trafficking but on a lower scale

I'm going to have to disagree with you here Faciulina. The Italians are indeed major arms traffickers in both Europe and around the world. There is no doubt about that. But the Russians are bigger because they have always had larger access to weapons left over from the Soviet Union and the current Russian black market. In some cases, South American paramiltary groups have bought weapons from the Italians, but most of them have come from the Russians. Often drugs have been traded for weapons. The Albanians are the new guys on the block but they have become major arms traffickers as well, though primarily in Europe, not around the world like the Russians and Italians.