Who runs New York: 2007?

[thewestside]

Right it is only one factor but its the most profitable factor there is in crime, organised or not. Albanians have enough arms, I know Russians have their deal in arms as well but I know alot of European gangsters look for Albanians when their in need of guns.

I dont really pay too much attention to other crime organisations westside so maybe you might know more than me but I have been paying alot of attention to the Albanian mob and almost every article I read about them talks about them like there force is unstoppable and alot of articles say that the Albanians are the most powerful in Europe.

As I said in another thread, the Albanians are very powerful within their scope of influence. They control a variety of rackets - drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human smuggling, prostitution, auto theft, etc. - within the Balkans and parts of Eastern Europe. However, while an article here or there might say otherwise, the combined evidence says they are not yet on the same level as either the Italians or Russians.

[flame_guards_member1]

Right it is only one factor but its the most profitable factor there is in crime, organised or not. Albanians have enough arms, I know Russians have their deal in arms as well but I know alot of European gangsters look for Albanians when their in need of guns.

I dont really pay too much attention to other crime organisations westside so maybe you might know more than me but I have been paying alot of attention to the Albanian mob and almost every article I read about them talks about them like there force is unstoppable and alot of articles say that the Albanians are the most powerful in Europe.

As I said in another thread, the Albanians are very powerful within their scope of influence. They control a variety of rackets - drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human smuggling, prostitution, auto theft, etc. - within the Balkans and parts of Eastern Europe. However, while an article here or there might say otherwise, the combined evidence says they are not yet on the same level as either the Italians or Russians.

Another interesting thing is that some groups have backup from paramilitary groups. Columbians and FARC. Albanians and UCK/KLA. See where I'm going with this? It gives them the ability to not just operate with the business image like the Italians or Russians, but with the military image. When any mafia has backup from a paramilitary organization, that means something in my opinion. For example some drug labs in Columbia usually have paramilitary forces guarding it. Movies, yes.

It would make the Russians/Italians even more powerful if they had a paramilitary organization on their side, just like with the Albanians and UCK or the Columbians and FARC.

[flame_guards_member1]

Right it is only one factor but its the most profitable factor there is in crime, organised or not. Albanians have enough arms, I know Russians have their deal in arms as well but I know alot of European gangsters look for Albanians when their in need of guns.

I dont really pay too much attention to other crime organisations westside so maybe you might know more than me but I have been paying alot of attention to the Albanian mob and almost every article I read about them talks about them like there force is unstoppable and alot of articles say that the Albanians are the most powerful in Europe.

As I said in another thread, the Albanians are very powerful within their scope of influence. They control a variety of rackets - drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human smuggling, prostitution, auto theft, etc. - within the Balkans and parts of Eastern Europe. However, while an article here or there might say otherwise, the combined evidence says they are not yet on the same level as either the Italians or Russians.

Another interesting thing is that some groups have backup from paramilitary groups. Columbians and FARC. Albanians and UCK/KLA. See where I'm going with this? It gives them the ability to not just operate with the business image like the Italians or Russians, but with the military image. When any mafia has backup from a paramilitary organization, that means something in my opinion. For example some drug labs in Columbia usually have paramilitary forces guarding it. Movies, yes.

It would make the Russians/Italians even more powerful if they had a paramilitary organization on their side, just like with the Albanians and UCK or the Columbians and FARC.

But yet again, where the Russians/Italians operate, they are very tough on paramilitary organizations, such as the USA. You don't see a bunch of FARC or KLA members up in a hill somewhere in Arkansas holding AK's and RPG's.

[thewestside]

Another interesting thing is that some groups have backup from paramilitary groups. Columbians and FARC. Albanians and UCK/KLA. See where I'm going with this? It gives them the ability to not just operate with the business image like the Italians or Russians, but with the military image. When any mafia has backup from a paramilitary organization, that means something in my opinion. For example some drug labs in Columbia usually have paramilitary forces guarding it. Movies, yes.

It would make the Russians/Italians even more powerful if they had a paramilitary organization on their side, just like with the Albanians and UCK or the Columbians and FARC.

Yes, both Columbian and Albanian criminal organizations have used paramilitary groups as an enforcement arm, for protection of drug shipments, as bodyguards, etc. In some instances, they are almost one and the same. But guess where FARC and other Columbian paramilitary groups have gotten much of their weapons? Russian arms traffickers. The KLA has gotten them from numerous sources - the Albanian army, foreign nations, as well as both Russian and Italian arms traffickers. Italian and Russian syndicates have more than enough weapons and killers. But that's not where their real power comes from. Their real power stems from the influence they hold in their respective country's social, economic, and political fabric.

I'll illustrate my point by using the American LCN as an example. In the 1920's and 1930's, the Italian mob in the U.S. had scores of gunmen on the streets in numerous cities, fighting for control of bootlegging and other rackets with rival Irish and Jewish mobs. In those days, gangland killings were the norm and the Italians made good their claim in blood. But is that really when they were the most powerful? Or was it 50 years later when their rivals had faded away and mob killings were few and far between? By that point, the mob was no longer fighting it out in the streets. The families had evolved into business crime groups. They controlled the lion's share of criminal operations - illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion, narcotics, labor racketeering, hijacking, etc. They controlled numerous industries - the waterfront, garbage hauling, construction, trucking, the airports, food wholesaling, and so on.

It is the level of sophistication that a criminal organization holds that is the true test of it's power. Not how many guns it has.

[JohnnyRed]

Right it is only one factor but its the most profitable factor there is in crime, organised or not. Albanians have enough arms, I know Russians have their deal in arms as well but I know alot of European gangsters look for Albanians when their in need of guns.

I dont really pay too much attention to other crime organisations westside so maybe you might know more than me but I have been paying alot of attention to the Albanian mob and almost every article I read about them talks about them like there force is unstoppable and alot of articles say that the Albanians are the most powerful in Europe.

As I said in another thread, the Albanians are very powerful within their scope of influence. They control a variety of rackets - drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human smuggling, prostitution, auto theft, etc. - within the Balkans and parts of Eastern Europe. However, while an article here or there might say otherwise, the combined evidence says they are not yet on the same level as either the Italians or Russians.

Another interesting thing is that some groups have backup from paramilitary groups. Columbians and FARC. Albanians and UCK/KLA. See where I'm going with this? It gives them the ability to not just operate with the business image like the Italians or Russians, but with the military image. When any mafia has backup from a paramilitary organization, that means something in my opinion. For example some drug labs in Columbia usually have paramilitary forces guarding it. Movies, yes.

It would make the Russians/Italians even more powerful if they had a paramilitary organization on their side, just like with the Albanians and UCK or the Columbians and FARC.

your right flames guard. That is why the Colombians and Albanians are so powerful I think, what people dont understand is that the KLA is a wing of the Albanian mafia. The Albanian mob from Albania, Kosova, Illirida and Malizi CREATED the UCK. At any given time any Albanian mob boss, can give orders and those orders can be passed down to an UCK soldier if they wanted, the KLA amounts to 100,000 at least. lets say 94,000 of them are Albanians because other nations have put soldier in there to help out. They all sell Heroin and cocaine to fund the war, and all kill.

Begjet Pacolli can say a couple a words and have 1000 soldiers go after one guy in one city. just as an example.

This is why in Europe the Albanians are the strongest. In terms of muscle. In terms of Money I dont know who would come first between the Albanians and the Italians.

[thewestside]

This is why in Europe the Albanians are the strongest. In terms of muscle. In terms of Money I dont know who would come first between the Albanians and the Italians.

As powerful as it may be there, for the most part, the Albanians' muscle (the KLA) doesn't extend beyond the Balkans. Both the Italians and Russians are far wealthier than the Albanians.

[JohnnyRed]

This is why in Europe the Albanians are the strongest. In terms of muscle. In terms of Money I dont know who would come first between the Albanians and the Italians.

As powerful as it may be there, for the most part, the Albanians' muscle (the KLA) doesn't extend beyond the Balkans. Both the Italians and Russians are far wealthier than the Albanians.

Wrong. The KLA extends all over the world westside. They are former UCK members here in New York, Detroit, Chicago, I have uncles who were in it that live in Germany. All the people I know that were in the KLA or who were supporters of it sent millions back home to fund the war. I have yet to find a former KLA member who is broke in this day. In America most of them are drug sellers, but in Europe those guys are all connected to everyone and doing pretty much everything. Think about it westside if you got a majority of an army the size of 100,000 selling drugs, commiting prostitution, and pretty much anything that involves money. What do you think they're doing now? Do you think they just gave it up when the war was over. Come on man, realize whats going on outside the Italian underworld Westside. The Albanians are the biggest in numbers in Europe even though our ethnic population is the lowest out of all the big crime groups. The Albanians are not like the Italians, we dont form families and organize them by Boss, Underboss, Etc... Most Albanian criminal groups in Europe consist of 100 people and thats it. There are those type of groups all over Europe. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, UK.

Westside if you want to have a debate thats fines, but dont come online and tell me everything about Albanians. Because I do know more about Albanians than you do. I dont come here to hype them up in any way, I could care less what you think about the Albanian mafia because all your focused in is the Italians. I gave you statements, that clearly say in America, the Albanians are on rise to replace the Italians. All you give me is statements from civpool.com or w.e it was that say Balkan organised crime isnt on the same level as Italian and Russian organised crime. When you put Albanians in the Balkan category. Your talking about the pathetic mafias of Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, etc... that weigh down the rest, more stronger Balkan crime groups (Albanians).

Westside you gotta wake up, this isnt 1960 anymore, the Italians have there power presence in Italy and some west European countries.

[thewestside]

Wrong. The KLA extends all over the world westside. They are former UCK members here in New York, Detroit, Chicago, I have uncles who were in it that live in Germany. All the people I know that were in the KLA or who were supporters of it sent millions back home to fund the war. I have yet to find a former KLA member who is broke in this day. In America most of them are drug sellers, but in Europe those guys are all connected to everyone and doing pretty much everything. Think about it westside if you got a majority of an army the size of 100,000 selling drugs, commiting prostitution, and pretty much anything that involves money. What do you think they're doing now? Do you think they just gave it up when the war was over. Come on man, realize whats going on outside the Italian underworld Westside.

There are many Russian mob members here in the U.S. and other parts of the world who were part of the former Soviet Union's military and intelligence organizations. However, they aren't considered to still be a part of the Russian army or KGB. Individual members of the KLA may move to different areas of the globe, it doesn't mean the KLA itself has moved with them.

The Albanians are the biggest in numbers in Europe even though our ethnic population is the lowest out of all the big crime groups. The Albanians are not like the Italians, we dont form families and organize them by Boss, Underboss, Etc...

You keep saying the Albanians have the biggest numbers in Europe but you have yet to prove it. Like I've said before, unlike some of the other groups, I have never seen any estimates as to how many Albanians involved in organized crime there are.

Most Albanian criminal groups in Europe consist of 100 people and thats it. There are those type of groups all over Europe. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, UK.

Actually, Albanian groups tend to range from 3-20 members, at least as far as those organizations that are involved in drug trafficking in Albania. See page 74 in -

Situation Report on Organized and Economic Crime in South-Eastern Europe (2006)
http://www.coe.int/t/e/legal_affairs/le ... 006_20.pdf

Westside if you want to have a debate thats fines, but dont come online and tell me everything about Albanians. Because I do know more about Albanians than you do. I dont come here to hype them up in any way, I could care less what you think about the Albanian mafia because all your focused in is the Italians. I gave you statements, that clearly say in America, the Albanians are on rise to replace the Italians. All you give me is statements from civpool.com or w.e it was that say Balkan organised crime isnt on the same level as Italian and Russian organised crime. When you put Albanians in the Balkan category. Your talking about the pathetic mafias of Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, etc... that weigh down the rest, more stronger Balkan crime groups (Albanians).

I didn't put the Albanians in the category of "Balkan organized crime," the FBI and other agencies have. The same reason that Russians are put in the category of "Eurasian organized crime" and Chinese are put in the category of "Asian organized crime." But even if one refers to the Albanians alone, the situation remains the same. I'm sure you know more about Albanians than I do, but you have yet to show you know more about Albanian organized crime, even though that apparently makes up the most of what you have studied.

All you have provided to show that the Albanians are "on rise to replace the Italians" is one article from CNN (citing an unnamed FBI source) and a few more articles from various blogs and forums. Oh, and Wikipedia and your "Mafia nutcase" friend. I've asked you repeatedly to produce an official report that claims the Albanians are replacing the Italians in the U.S. You couldn't do it. I've asked you to name one other example besides the Rudaj gang where Albanians have gone up against the Italians. You couldn't do it. I've provided you with a number of official reports that demonstrate that Albanians are definitely on the rise, both in Europe and the U.S., but nothing in those show that they are replacing the Italians. All of the available evidence taken together says as much. But you refuse to believe it because you are here to hype the Albanians. Almost all your posts to date have proven that. As for me, my posts have shown I can discuss just about any organized crime group. Not just Italians.

Westside you gotta wake up, this isnt 1960 anymore, the Italians have there power presence in Italy and some west European countries.

If you are referring to all of the Italian syndicates collectively, they operate on a global scale - Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Australia, and North and South America.

[JohnnyRed]

Wrong. The KLA extends all over the world westside. They are former UCK members here in New York, Detroit, Chicago, I have uncles who were in it that live in Germany. All the people I know that were in the KLA or who were supporters of it sent millions back home to fund the war. I have yet to find a former KLA member who is broke in this day. In America most of them are drug sellers, but in Europe those guys are all connected to everyone and doing pretty much everything. Think about it westside if you got a majority of an army the size of 100,000 selling drugs, commiting prostitution, and pretty much anything that involves money. What do you think they're doing now? Do you think they just gave it up when the war was over. Come on man, realize whats going on outside the Italian underworld Westside.

There are many Russian mob members here in the U.S. and other parts of the world who were part of the former Soviet Union's military and intelligence organizations. However, they aren't considered to still be a part of the Russian army or KGB. Individual members of the KLA may move to different areas of the globe, it doesn't mean the KLA itself has moved with them.

The KGB is different from the KLA moron. the KLA is pretty much a drug army, raises money by drugs and fights for freedom. The KGB differs from the KLA completely.

The Albanians are the biggest in numbers in Europe even though our ethnic population is the lowest out of all the big crime groups. The Albanians are not like the Italians, we dont form families and organize them by Boss, Underboss, Etc...

You keep saying the Albanians have the biggest numbers in Europe but you have yet to prove it. Like I've said before, unlike some of the other groups, I have never seen any estimates as to how many Albanians involved in organized crime there are.[/quote]

When you have 100,000 members od a drug guerrilla army than yeah I would think we have the most numbers.

Most Albanian criminal groups in Europe consist of 100 people and thats it. There are those type of groups all over Europe. France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, UK.

Actually, Albanian groups tend to range from 3-20 members, at least as far as those organizations that are involved in drug trafficking in Albania. See page 74 in -

Situation Report on Organized and Economic Crime in South-Eastern Europe (2006)
http://www.coe.int/t/e/legal_affairs/le ... 006_20.pdf[/quote]

ahhh your such an idiot westside. Albanian law enfrocement agencies are currently observing up to 20 organised crime groups involved in drug trafiicking, composed of 3-20 members DEPENDING ON THE DIFFERENT STAGES OF THE RESPECTIVE CRIMES (PLANTING, PURCHASING, PROCESSING, TRANSPORT,DISTRIBUTION,COURIER ETC..)

THE CAPACITY OF ORGANISED CRIME GROUPS BOTH FINANCIALLY AND TECHNICALLY OFTEN EXCEEDS THE CAPACITY OF ALBANINA LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES.


Learn how to read what your reading, fuck I thought college was supposed to "enhance" the brain.

Westside if you want to have a debate thats fines, but dont come online and tell me everything about Albanians. Because I do know more about Albanians than you do. I dont come here to hype them up in any way, I could care less what you think about the Albanian mafia because all your focused in is the Italians. I gave you statements, that clearly say in America, the Albanians are on rise to replace the Italians. All you give me is statements from civpool.com or w.e it was that say Balkan organised crime isnt on the same level as Italian and Russian organised crime. When you put Albanians in the Balkan category. Your talking about the pathetic mafias of Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, etc... that weigh down the rest, more stronger Balkan crime groups (Albanians).

I didn't put the Albanians in the category of "Balkan organized crime," the FBI and other agencies have. The same reason that Russians are put in the category of "Eurasian organized crime" and Chinese are put in the category of "Asian organized crime." But even if one refers to the Albanians alone, the situation remains the same. I'm sure you know more about Albanians than I do, but you have yet to show you know more about Albanian organized crime, even though that apparently makes up the most of what you have studied.

All you have provided to show that the Albanians are "on rise to replace the Italians" is one article from CNN (citing an unnamed FBI source) and a few more articles from various blogs and forums. Oh, and Wikipedia and your "Mafia nutcase" friend. I've asked you repeatedly to produce an official report that claims the Albanians are replacing the Italians in the U.S. You couldn't do it. I've asked you to name one other example besides the Rudaj gang where Albanians have gone up against the Italians. You couldn't do it. I've provided you with a number of official reports that demonstrate that Albanians are definitely on the rise, both in Europe and the U.S., but nothing in those show that they are replacing the Italians. All of the available evidence taken together says as much. But you refuse to believe it because you are here to hype the Albanians. Almost all your posts to date have proven that. As for me, my posts have shown I can discuss just about any organized crime group. Not just Italians.[/quote]


No you cant, you never know anything about any other group unless you read a 'big picture' report on organised crime. Go to the 'new albanian mafia' thread and look at the sources i have given you.

Westside you gotta wake up, this isnt 1960 anymore, the Italians have there power presence in Italy and some west European countries.

If you are referring to all of the Italian syndicates collectively, they operate on a global scale - Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Australia, and North and South America.[/quote]


Right, well can you actually provide us with links that show how the Italians operate in the middle east, africa, asia and south america please? or should we just take your word for it..?

[RONNIE]

Right, well can you actually provide us with links that show how the Italians operate in the middle east, africa, asia and south america please? or should we just take your word for it..?

He probably can't and won't Johnny, even though I would be interested in reading about that too.

Also he is the one who is providing nothing in articles to support HIS own claim, that the other groups are still stronger.A few singles lines from a FBI reports, thats it.
Since there are now dozens of Albanian OC articles here saying they are at the very top, and you are still hungry westside, lets turn the situation around and see if YOU can give sources to support your claim, but just not the one-liners please, that is pathetic.I could post a million of them.

[JohnnyRed]

Right, well can you actually provide us with links that show how the Italians operate in the middle east, africa, asia and south america please? or should we just take your word for it..?

He probably can't and won't Johnny, even though I would be interested in reading about that too.

Also he is the one who is providing nothing in articles to support HIS own claim, that the other groups are still stronger.A few singles lines from a FBI reports, thats it.
Since there are now dozens of Albanian OC articles here saying they are at the very top, and you are still hungry westside, lets turn the situation around and see if YOU can give sources to support your claim, but just not the one-liners please, that is pathetic.I could post a million of them.

lol he reads a report which doesnt even go into specifics and thinks the world of that one report. besides that report the only counter argument he has against the albanian mafia is how rich and powerful some members and organisations of italian OC are.

BTW the Italians would have a hard time removing the Albanians even from southern Italy, I have cousins that live in central- south italy, they say pretty much the same shit, the italians are all scared of albanians, they should get in line


ronnie btw if your not albanian what are you? and where do you live? UK?

[flame_guards_member1]

100,000 members my ass --- where did you get those numbers? 10,000 members tops in UCK at the moment.

[Azure9920]

100,000 members my ass --- where did you get those numbers? 10,000 members tops in UCK at the moment.

You gotta remember this is the guy who claimed the Albanians ran a 400billion dollar heroin smuggling route through the Balkans.

Johnny, this site contains a bit of scant information concerning the Italians in Africa:
http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/EuroItalian.html

Mentions of the Ndrangheta activity in European countries other than Italy, South America and Asia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta

[JohnnyRed]

100,000 members my ass --- where did you get those numbers? 10,000 members tops in UCK at the moment.

You gotta remember this is the guy who claimed the Albanians ran a 400billion dollar heroin smuggling route through the Balkans.

Johnny, this site contains a bit of scant information concerning the Italians in Africa:
http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/EuroItalian.html

Mentions of the Ndrangheta activity in European countries other than Italy, South America and Asia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta

I didnt see anything about Africe there for one. Two, I never said anything about Australlia, I never doubted that... and south America... helping to ship cocaine to Italy is not considered OPERATING, Theres Albanians in the US that do that... I dont consider them to be operating there... What they do in Australlia is called operating...

[Azure9920]

http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/EuroItalian.html

LIBYA, TUNISIA, Lebanon, SOUTH AFRICA , NAMIMBIA

/quote]


I didnt see anything about Africe there for one. Two, I never said anything about Australlia, I never doubted that... and south America... helping to ship cocaine to Italy is not considered OPERATING, Theres Albanians in the US that do that... I dont consider them to be operating there... What they do in Australlia is called operating...

Those countries I took the liberty of highlighting are all in Africa...unless South Africa is in a different continent? Maybe I've missed something here..

[JohnnyRed]

http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/EuroItalian.html

LIBYA, TUNISIA, Lebanon, SOUTH AFRICA , NAMIMBIA

/quote]


I didnt see anything about Africe there for one. Two, I never said anything about Australlia, I never doubted that... and south America... helping to ship cocaine to Italy is not considered OPERATING, Theres Albanians in the US that do that... I dont consider them to be operating there... What they do in Australlia is called operating...

Those countries I took the liberty of highlighting are all in Africa...unless South Africa is in a different continent? Maybe I've missed something here..

Sorry I missed that but that still isnt any reliable source, this site is not reliable, it also said about the Russians that they have 300,000 members and that BS, i mean give me an article where it shows ITalians operating in Africa or Lebanon or Souther AMerica (besides gettting cocaine there because many groups operate there is thats what you mean)

[Azure9920]

Show me where it says the Russians have 300k members on that site please.

[JohnnyRed]

http://gangstersinc.tripod.com/EuroItalian.html

LIBYA, TUNISIA, Lebanon, SOUTH AFRICA , NAMIMBIA

/quote]


I didnt see anything about Africe there for one. Two, I never said anything about Australlia, I never doubted that... and south America... helping to ship cocaine to Italy is not considered OPERATING, Theres Albanians in the US that do that... I dont consider them to be operating there... What they do in Australlia is called operating...

Those countries I took the liberty of highlighting are all in Africa...unless South Africa is in a different continent? Maybe I've missed something here..

Sorry I missed that but that still isnt any reliable source, this site is not reliable, it also said about the Russians that they have 300,000 members and that BS, i mean give me an article where it shows ITalians operating in Africa or Lebanon or Souther AMerica (besides gettting cocaine there because many groups operate there is thats what you mean)

The Russians can be considered together with the Italians (Cosa Nostra, Ndrangheta, Camorra) and the Colombians to be the most powerful criminals in the world.
does thst seem right to you, even the all knowing westside said the colombians werent that powerful.

[Azure9920]

The Norte Del Valle Cartel still moves alot of weight, enough to put them alongside the Russians and Italians.

[JohnnyRed]

The Norte Del Valle Cartel still moves alot of weight, enough to put them alongside the Russians and Italians.

Colombians are limited in Colombia pretty much. Only reason Colombians are even in the tops is because they have all the cocaine. Italians are not in the top three in the world. I wouldnt even put them at fourth.

[thewestside]

Right, well can you actually provide us with links that show how the Italians operate in the middle east, africa, asia and south america please? or should we just take your word for it..?

"Italian organized crime groups have moved well beyond their home regions in southern Italy and are now firmly entrenched throughout Europe, in Central and South America, the Caribbean, Canada, and the United States. Expatriate Italian communities and established international criminal connections in these regions have given Italian organized crime groups the infrastructure and capability to move highly profitable contraband products--including drugs, arms, and cigarettes--and launder illicit proceeds on a global basis. They maintain legitimate business holdings worldwide that are often used as a cover for their criminal operations. Italian crime groups' longtime investments in real estate and entertainment enterprises--particularly gambling casinos--in Germany, France, Monaco, Spain's Costa del Sol, and the Caribbean are conduits for money laundering. Since the early 1990s, Italian criminal organizations have been reported buying properties and businesses in Eastern and Central Europe and many of the NIS of the former Soviet Union to launder money. According to media accounts, Sicilian Mafia front companies have been identified in virtually every East European country and in Russia."

International Crime Threat Assessment (2000)
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/htm ... chap3.html#


"Their criminal activities are international with members and affiliates in Canada, South America, Australia, and parts of Europe. They are also known to collaborate with other international organized crime groups from all over the world, especially in drug trafficking."

Federal Bureau of Investigation
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/lcnindex.htm


"Italian organized crime has long established links with many South American countries such as Bolivia, Argentina, Colombia, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, and Brazil, as well as with Central America (Panama, Costa Rica), the Carribean, and North America."

Report on Cooperation of Organized Crime Groups Around the World
http://www.bmlv.gv.at/pdf_pool/publikat ... b99_04.pdf


"The Italian and Sicilian Mafia are now also using South Africa as a major conduit for laundering money derived from drugs, fraud and extortion. Real and dummy companies have been established and exploited for these purposes. Expensive property deals have also been negotiated and many well known establishment corporations are dealing, in most cases quite unwittingly, with night clubs, restaurants, discotheques and other assorted enterprises which involve Mafia families."

Crime and Corruption: Growth Industries In the New South Africa
http://www.christianaction.org.za/newsl ... uption.htm

[thewestside]

does thst seem right to you, even the all knowing westside said the colombians werent that powerful.

When did I ever say that? The Colombians are extremely powerful. They are one of the groups are operate on a global scale. They control virtually the entire supply of the world's cocaine and much of the heroin supply for the Western Hemisphere.

The Norte Del Valle Cartel still moves alot of weight, enough to put them alongside the Russians and Italians.

The Norte del Valle cartel is still considered the most powerful in Colombia. It is basically the last of the large Colombian cartels after the fall of the Medellin and Cali organizations.

Colombians are limited in Colombia pretty much. Only reason Colombians are even in the tops is because they have all the cocaine. Italians are not in the top three in the world. I wouldnt even put them at fourth.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. But tell me JohnnyRed, why exactly wouldn't the Italians even be in fourth place in the world? Who exactly would be ahead of them? Remember, we're talking worldwide here.

[thewestside]

I didnt see anything about Africe there for one. Two, I never said anything about Australlia, I never doubted that... and south America... helping to ship cocaine to Italy is not considered OPERATING, Theres Albanians in the US that do that... I dont consider them to be operating there... What they do in Australlia is called operating...

Well JohnnyRed, if you knew anything about the Italian Mafia as you say you do, you would know that the Caruana-Cuntrera and Rizzuto clans of the Sicilian Mafia have been active in Venezuela, Brazil, and Aruba for decades. The 'Ndrangheta also has cells that operate in Colombia.

[RONNIE]

What I find interesting, is that in some Western European countries 80% of the Italian pizza restaurants are said to be paying protection money.
The same goes for Chinese restaurants.Probably an exaggeration, but still those are some huge numbers.

[thewestside]

What I find interesting, is that in some Western European countries 80% of the Italian pizza restaurants are said to be paying protection money.
The same goes for Chinese restaurants.Probably an exaggeration, but still those are some huge numbers.

It's no exaggeration. The extortion racket, no as the "pizzo," is well established in Sicily and Southern Italy. In Sicly, 80% of the businesses pay the Cosa Nostra. In Calabria, 60% of the businesses pay the 'Ndrangheta. And in Campania, 50% of the businesses pay the Camorra.

[RONNIE]

Yes, I know about Southern Italy.

But I was talking about articles saying that 80% of the Italian restaurants in France, Germany, Netherlands... have to pay the "pizzo".
Some articles even claimed that almost every Chinese restaurant has to pay protection fees in some countries in Western and Central Europe.

[RONNIE]

One would think it is obviously an exaggeration, since not even in Southern Italy that many people pay protection fees, but turncoats have backed some of those claims.

[flame_guards_member1]

Show me where it says the Russians have 300k members on that site please.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... ry_id=3839

The big picture: As much as one tenth of Russia’s territory, and one quarter of its economy, may be under the sway of roughly 300,000 members in some 450 different Russian mob groups.

[thewestside]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms. ... ry_id=3839

That's an interesting breakdown on that page but not entirely accurate. The Chinese Triads and Japanese Yakuza are considered to be the largest criminal syndicates in the world with 100,000 and 90,000 members respectively. Triad groups, Yakuza clans, and the larger Russian syndicates are similar in that they are essentially umbrella organizations for a number of smaller groups. But even if you combined them all, the Russian mob has nowhere near 300,000 members. That number is just outlandish.

[Babmuk]

WestSide:i got a question for you.How come nobody mentions Peru and Bolivia,always talking about Colombian cartels,like there's no coca plants in above mentioned countries?
and yeah,300 000K in russian mob..thats smt virtual,like they mentioned every thug in Russia to be in mafia.

[frank from the falls]

The world is a big place... To say who's the most powerful in the world...doesn't matter... You go to Japan, it's the Yakuza/yamaguci-gumi. go to China and you'd see the triads or some affiliate. Go to Colombia, it's the cartels. Go to Sicily, it's the Mafia. Go to Moskow, it's the Russians.

Pound for pound - it doesn't matter who's the 'strongest.' Figure who gets the most money in their respective markets, then that's who's the most powerful... as for brute force and who's the strongest...never gonna find out. Unless you get all the Sicilian mobsters to take a flight all the Jamacian drug dealers and all the Columbian dealers and all the crazy Albanians...if we could get them all to take a flight to somewhere and duke it out...That would be the Pay Per View of the Century!!!!! Gang Warfare I... I'd buy it!

[RONNIE]

Just to clear some things up:

-The Russian Mafia doesnt have 300,000 members.I have even seen estimates of a million Russian OC members.Those numbers have no basis in reality.
-The KLA never had 100,000 members.It also shouldnt be mixed up with the mafia.At its height 1998-1999 it had around 30,000 members (most common estimate),
who came from everywhere to fight for their home country.It was said that they were financed by OC and "donations" (some voluntary, some not)
Also, officially it was disbanded after the war.To think that a really big number of those guys turned to organized crime, would be naive, to not say moronic.
The KLA neither was a "drug army", nor the Albanian mafia's "muscle" and is certainly even less that now.
-The Zemun clan was big and at its height a decade ago.Now I believe it is dead.Most of the Zemun clan was dismantled after they were said to have killed Serbia's
Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic.
-It will be impossible for anyone to become as powerful in America as the LCN used to be.Just one of the main factors why, are the harsh RICO penalties and the FBI trying
to dismantle any newcomers before they can become powerful.
-The prosecution in Italy seems even tougher, and the mafia still surviving just shows how powerful they are in Italy.
For example just in the last weeks there have been one time 150m and another time 200m Euros of mafia assets confiscated, if I remember correctly.
-The articles, probably coming from the terrible racist forum Stormfront, about Sicilians having black blood etc. I would better take not just with one grain of salt.
-The Albanians did not bribe the French and American presidents.The Ahtisaari article is questionable too.I would take the articles from Serbianna.com with a grain of salt as
well, since that is "Serbian propaganda" type of material.You dont want to put yourself on that position, Johnny, basically portraying your entire country and even freedom
fighters as criminals.If you do that, you should never be able to look an Albanian in the eyes again.Those are exactly the words of an Albanian friend of mine and they are
definitely understandable and correct.I still assume you have just dragged yourself too much into this debate and out of frustration made several really false claims, trying
to prove something pointless.

Many people like the thought of an allmighty organization, but it doesnt exist, it is impossible, it is crime.The goal is to make as much money as you can.
-Even the N'drangheta, undoubtedly one of the most powerful groups in the world can seem amateurish sometimes.Specifically I mean an incident where 3 members
spontaneously set up a bad induction ceremony for a third friend, because they needed a driver for the getaway car and the third friend was kind of scared.He never did any
work previously.This has happened in the Netherlands and I hope I remembered the details correctly, but it gives you an idea.

I agree with westside, there is a mix of different groups at the top.
I agree with you too, Frank.And if you are planning on realizing that PPV show, I will gladly send you a payment today.

We all know which groups are the major ones, and we might rank all them a little differently, but thinking which one is the most powerful is just hypothetical.
Things change quickly, and the major organizations often cooperate and have respect for each other, knowing a war just costs a lot for both sides and is a lose-lose situation.
The biggest groups are established...
Its mostly the small time dealers and pimps fighting nowadays, not the big groups.Also fights happen more often WITHIN certain groups (operating in the same markets, i.e. the Camorra very recently)[marq=down]