Albanian mafia in NY

[Richboy17]

The Albanians are not taking over the Italian Mafia, and they were never will be like the Italians were in the early 30's. To many indictments today, and Albanians cant really work with other criminal groups. The Italians worked with the Jews and Irish which eventually led them to expand their operations unlike the Albanians. Do you know what alot of Albanian criminals did when they arrived to the US in the 90's? They basically told people to kick back or hand over construction sites, and they would do it by force and intimditation. Thats why most rich Albanians tell everybody they work in construction. The Rudjai crew had about 2 dozen members and about 2 times that amount in associates. They are not even a glorified crew. The Westies or the Demeo's would of wiped them out.

[razbojnik]

The Albanians are not taking over the Italian Mafia, and they were never will be like the Italians were in the early 30's. To many indictments today, and Albanians cant really work with other criminal groups. The Italians worked with the Jews and Irish which eventually led them to expand their operations unlike the Albanians. Do you know what alot of Albanian criminals did when they arrived to the US in the 90's? They basically told people to kick back or hand over construction sites, and they would do it by force and intimditation. Thats why most rich Albanians tell everybody they work in construction. The Rudjai crew had about 2 dozen members and about 2 times that amount in associates. They are not even a glorified crew. The Westies or the Demeo's would of wiped them out.

Tony Soprano ftw... Hahaha

[razbojnik]

You're just looking in the wrong spots lol....

What are we talking about? Drugs or nightclubs?

[TeeKay]

IMO albaniaunited is johnnyred...

[razbojnik]

IMO albaniaunited is johnnyred...

Interesting thing he just started to sound like him. You noticed he aggressivly(all of a sudden) switched from being against the Albanian mob and what Johnny said to making them seem just like Johnny would like to...

[thewestside]

IMO albaniaunited is johnnyred...

Interesting thing he just started to sound like him. You noticed he aggressivly(all of a sudden) switched from being against the Albanian mob and what Johnny said to making them seem just like Johnny would like to...

I noticed that too.

[AlbaniaUnited]

IMO albaniaunited is johnnyred...

Interesting thing he just started to sound like him. You noticed he aggressivly(all of a sudden) switched from being against the Albanian mob and what Johnny said to making them seem just like Johnny would like to...

Although I don't have time right now to reply to 'thewestsides' post. I will later on but I just wanted to say a quick thing. No I am not JohnnyRed. Second, I was never against the Albanian mob. :S. But my view is not that the Albanian mafia conquers the entire world. But I was making a debate against 'thewestside' because he very much like JohnnyRed has a very biased and one look idea on things. Thats why I tended to get a little frustrated. Notice how he didn't even reply to the things he can't argue about. Instead he finds way to twist my argument around to his favor and answers as he pleases. He pretty much implyed that he knew more then Jerry Capeci on organised crime. And the guy has written entire books on the mafia.

[thewestside]

Although I don't have time right now to reply to 'thewestsides' post. I will later on but I just wanted to say a quick thing. No I am not JohnnyRed. Second, I was never against the Albanian mob. :S. But my view is not that the Albanian mafia conquers the entire world. But I was making a debate against 'thewestside' because he very much like JohnnyRed has a very biased and one look idea on things. Thats why I tended to get a little frustrated. Notice how he didn't even reply to the things he can't argue about. Instead he finds way to twist my argument around to his favor and answers as he pleases. He pretty much implyed that he knew more then Jerry Capeci on organised crime. And the guy has written entire books on the mafia.

I didn't say I knew more about organized crime than Capeci. I said that the FBI, Justice Department, and other federal and state law enforcement agencies know more than Capeci. Don't put words in my mouth. Capeci's figures were simply one estimate. But instead of looking at as many estimates as possible, you choose to go with that one estimate alone, even though it's low, because it helps your argument that the Rudaj gang almost equaled the Colombo Family.

This whole argument began by you claiming that the Albanians are among the top groups in New York, "surpassing most other criminal organizations." At one point you said that you have even read reports that they are the top group in New York. Then you went on to say that because Albanian groups aren't as "sophisticated" as Italian and Russian groups, it doesn't mean they aren't as powerful and influential. In other words, you were implying that Albanian groups could be as powerful and influential as Italian and Russian groups. All this after you told JohnnyRed at one point that the Italians were the most powerful.

You claimed that you weren't basing your whole argument on the CNN video but you basically are. You think that simply because Albanians were mentioned in the video that that's proof they are among the top groups in New York, as well as assume that they are more powerful than other groups because they weren't mentioned, even though I told you that they weren't mentioned because not all of them are investigated by the FBI. Case in point, the Cubans. You just assumed that the Albanians are more powerful than they are even though you know nothing about the Cubans.

You said yourself that the Albanians were mentioned in the CNN report because they are among the biggest threats. If that's so, why is there little to no mention of Albanian groups mentioned in indictments or press reports since the Rudaj gang was taken down? And speaking of the Rudaj gang, like JohnnyRed, you can't make up your mind about them. One minute you're saying they were almost a "sixth family," the next minute you're saying that they are nothing compared to other Albanian groups. I ask you for examples of these other groups and, like JohnnyRed, you give me Ismail Lika. You also mentioned the YACS groups but you apparently knew very little about those.

Like JohnnyRed, you claimed that the Rudaj gang took over 7 gambling clubs even though they took over only 2. Then you bring up Johnny Sac from The Sopranos as some sort of support for your argument that the Rudaj gang was worth more than what was listed in the indictment. The Rudaj gang is now defunct but you choose to nickel and dime the argument by saying that not all of it's members were indicted.

You repeately accused me of being biased because I'm Italian, even though I've told you repeatedly that I am not. It's much like how JohnnyRed kept accusing me of editing the Wikipedia article on the Rudaj gang even though I repeatedly told him I didn't. And, like JohnnyRed, you throw out an inflated bogus estimate of the Albanian population in the U.S.

Finally, like JohnnyRed and other Albanian posters, you claim that the incidents surrounding the Rudaj gang were a turning point or landmark in American organized crime. That the Rudaj gang temporarilly taking over two Greek clubs paying tribute to the LCN, holding their ground at the gas station meeting, and "taking over" Gotti's old table at Raos' is a sign that the Albanians are pushing aside La Cosa Nostra. If that's the case, why haven't other Albanians, or any other group, tried to take on the LCN like the Rudaj gang did? Surely if the Albanians were taking over as you contend, there would be more indictments of them and press reports about them.

Bottom line, would the Albanians be in the top 10 organized crime groups in New York? Yes. Top 5? No, because they take a back seat to at least the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Colombians, and Cubans.

End of story.

[razbojnik]

Round one...

[AlbaniaUnited]

I didn't say I knew more about organized crime than Capeci. I said that the FBI, Justice Department, and other federal and state law enforcement agencies know more than Capeci. Don't put words in my mouth. Capeci's figures were simply one estimate. But instead of looking at as many estimates as possible, you choose to go with that one estimate alone, even though it's low, because it helps your argument that the Rudaj gang almost equaled the Colombo Family.

---Well correct me if I'm wrong but you said that Jerry Capeci's estimate was too low. Then you gave us an estimate you think is proper. Which was 35-40 members higher the Capeci's. I said it before and I'll say it again, I'll take Jerry Capeci's word before yours any and everyday. Of course it helps my argument, but it wasent my estimate. It was Jerry Capeci's who has written entire books on the mafia. Hundreds of pages. The FBI counts every member alive. Active or inactive.

This whole argument began by you claiming that the Albanians are among the top groups in New York, "surpassing most other criminal organizations." At one point you said that you have even read reports that they are the top group in New York. Then you went on to say that because Albanian groups aren't as "sophisticated" as Italian and Russian groups, it doesn't mean they aren't as powerful and influential. In other words, you were implying that Albanian groups could be as powerful and influential as Italian and Russian groups. All this after you told JohnnyRed at one point that the Italians were the most powerful.

---So let me get this straight 'thewestside'. To you, sophistication equals power? Because the Italians are more sophisticated they are more powerful? 'thewestside' again, you have proven yourself as an awful reader. The Albanians are not as sophsiticated as the Italians. They use alot of aggression and violence doing things other criminals would not dare to do. I stated that I have read reports that went as far as to call the Albanian mafia the most prominent in New York. That still didn't change my opinion of what I thought before reading it. Albanians are structered simply around a few central leaders. It appears that the structure of these groups, due to their quick rise, success rates, and coordination of activities, suggest a hierarchical chain of command, that is intricate and based upon the Sicilian Mafia's system of bosses and under-bosses which revolves around blood and marriage relatives. Yet, it seems that in Europe, as well to some extent in the US, the chain of command is a decentralised one, that allows for flexibility among the small crews which carry out activity, while general directives flow from the top to the bottom. The Italians are structered hierarchially that's why they are stated as more "sophisticated". I told JohnnyRed what I still think now. The Italian mafia is still the most prominent criminal group in New York. The Albanians have not been here long enough to replace them and are not as rooted and entrenched in the New York system like the Italians are. I am not saying that my opinion is that Albanians surpass every group in New York. Like you stupidly imply I am every waking moment.

You claimed that you weren't basing your whole argument on the CNN video but you basically are. You think that simply because Albanians were mentioned in the video that that's proof they are among the top groups in New York, as well as assume that they are more powerful than other groups because they weren't mentioned, even though I told you that they weren't mentioned because not all of them are investigated by the FBI.

---Okay so if the FBI doesnt even bother investigating other groups. How would that make them more powerful then the Albanians? The FBI came down for CNN and stated that Asians in Chinatown, Russians and Albanians are the most serious criminal threats in New York. As the Italians continuesly lose influence and power, the Albanians and Russians continue to pick up the peices and take over lost land. Sometimes not even waiting for the Italians to lose territory but instead taking it by force.

Case in point, the Cubans. You just assumed that the Albanians are more powerful than they are even though you know nothing about the Cubans.

--- Yes I did think this without knowing anything about the Cubans because if Cubans showed that much criminal presence in New York. Something would pop up. I googled the 'Cuban Corporation' and for the first two pages all I seen were sources for actual corporations. After that I got tired of looking.

You said yourself that the Albanians were mentioned in the CNN report because they are among the biggest threats. If that's so, why is there little to no mention of Albanian groups mentioned in indictments or press reports since the Rudaj gang was taken down?

---More importantly why do YOU think that is? Are you implying that there are no other Albanian gangs? You say when was the last time you read of Albanians in indictments since the Rudaj gang? Last we heard of the Rudajs was two years ago. Do we have to hear of Albanian indictments every couple of months to prove that there is Albanian criminal presence in New York? When was the last Russian indictment? The last Chinese indictment, the last Cuban indictment? Albanians work in small groups revolving around a few central leaders. Indicting Albanians is much harder then indicting Italians. What would be easier, wire tapping or infiltrating a big group who speaks English and deals with many outsiders? Or wire tapping and infiltrating small groups who speak Albanian and dont let outsider get in too close? Exactly...

And speaking of the Rudaj gang, like JohnnyRed, you can't make up your mind about them. One minute you're saying they were almost a "sixth family," the next minute you're saying that they are nothing compared to other Albanian groups. I ask you for examples of these other groups and, like JohnnyRed, you give me Ismail Lika. You also mentioned the YACS groups but you apparently knew very little about those.

---I never said that they are nothing compared to other groups, again YOU put words in my mouth. I guess thats how you make an argument. I didnt give you Ismail Lika. He was in the 1980's. We are in 2008. I think your confusing me with JohnnyRed or again your just talking about things you would like to talk about with out reference to what I said. I stated that I can name easily off the top of my head three Albanian crime figures and 'outfits' (Rudaj, Lika, YACS, Zef Mustafa, Anton Spaci).

---The YACS group is a succesfuly criminal gang, mostly composed of Albanians whose membership is estimated from 40-400. They cannot be certain because of the groups ability to rob across the nation. Not to mention the group was involved in drug trafficking as well as other things. it appeared that the Albanians operating within the US had a series of crews separated into premier and second class units depending upon the difficulty of the job. For example, the A-team would use oxygen tanks, and electro-magnetic core drill, rotary hammers and over one hundred metal drill rods capable of reaching temperatures between 9,000 and 10,000 degrees F. With skill and precision, they could use the torches without damaging either money and/or jewels within the safe. The A-team also has an intricate network of lookouts equipped with walkie-talkies, sophisticated police scanners, and often disables alarms and area communications boxes before an operation. The B-team is not as sophisticated. Consisting of between four and six men, the team often carries cutters and twenty pound sledgehammers with large steel wedges, and crowbars, used for prying open safes and ATM machine doors while one or two men stand lookout along with a driver. While lacking in sophistication the B-team makes up for it in brutality and cunning. These men are often Albanians from Albania, Kosovo, or Macedonia looking for quick money and with little skill.

Like JohnnyRed, you claimed that the Rudaj gang took over 7 gambling clubs even though they took over only 2. Then you bring up Johnny Sac from The Sopranos as some sort of support for your argument that the Rudaj gang was worth more than what was listed in the indictment. The Rudaj gang is now defunct but you choose to nickel and dime the argument by saying that not all of it's members were indicted.

--- No again you are talking foolishly and wrong. I dont remember what JohnnyRed said but what I did was list the seven most recent gambling spots the gangs controlled, opened or took over. I said I don't know how many clubs on that list belonged to the mafia before they took them over. But again you give us BS on your part speaking of things that didn't happen.

--- The Rudaj gang is mainly out of business. But like I said numerously. Not every member was convicted and not every member was indicted. So the members that beat the case are still active. Whether or not they call themselves the 'corporation' anymore is beyond me. I'm guessing they dont and might have started working for other criminal groups.

--- I brought up Johnny Sack because even though it is a fictional show, many things are accurate on that show as to the mafia life. They have mafia experts that work on the show. What I was trying to say is that Johnny Sack's indictment asked for an amount of money which his networth probably exceeded over ten times. You repeatedly say that Alex Rudaj was able to obtain about $5 million USD (even though the indictment asked for $5.8 million USD, shows how much you pay attention) and four properties. You go out of your way to downsize this man. Why I don't know. I say its because your Italian. You say your not. I think you are but dont say it to make people think that you have a neutral view point here. Almost everything you say is wrong and hyping up Italian OC. Your the Italian JohnnyRed my friend. Face it.

[quoted]You repeately accused me of being biased because I'm Italian, even though I've told you repeatedly that I am not. It's much like how JohnnyRed kept accusing me of editing the Wikipedia article on the Rudaj gang even though I repeatedly told him I didn't. And, like JohnnyRed, you throw out an inflated bogus estimate of the Albanian population in the U.S.

--- Chances are you did edit the wikipedia article. Many of your sources come from wikipedia. A lot of what you said about the Rudajs can be found on the wikipedia page of him. LOOL. Its sad how far you go to downsize the Albanians.

--- The Albanian population is 113,000 people in America according to you. LOOOOOOL.


-http://blog.aacl.com/state-of-the-alb-nation/ (According to Joseph Dioguardi -Albanian-, the leader of the Albanian-American civic league). (550,000-750,000)

-http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all (500,000)

--- Must you fight me even on thie 'thewestside'? Do you honestly in your head think that you would know more then me about the Albanian population in America? Get real man, your on some power trip over here. You think you know everything. You want to be right about every single thing in existence.

Finally, like JohnnyRed and other Albanian posters, you claim that the incidents surrounding the Rudaj gang were a turning point or landmark in American organized crime. That the Rudaj gang temporarilly taking over two Greek clubs paying tribute to the LCN, holding their ground at the gas station meeting, and "taking over" Gotti's old table at Raos' is a sign that the Albanians are pushing aside La Cosa Nostra. If that's the case, why haven't other Albanians, or any other group, tried to take on the LCN like the Rudaj gang did? Surely if the Albanians were taking over as you contend, there would be more indictments of them and press reports about them.

--- LOOOOOOL. So all those things are nothing is what your saying? Pointing a gun at a boss? Taking over two Gambino and Lucchese crime family protected clubs? This is nothing? How so? Last time I heard pointing a gun at someones face and telling them to drop there guns and get out of here is a sign of disrespect. What I want to bring to your attention is that if the Albanians were sooooooo freakishly small and weak compared to the Italians how would they do such a thing? I already told you my stance on New York crime. But you hype the Italians up way too much. You should understand that while the Italians do hold the majority share of the New York criminal world their majority percentage is much smaller now due to much competition.

Bottom line, would the Albanians be in the top 10 organized crime groups in New York? Yes. Top 5? No, because they take a back seat to at least the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Colombians, and Cubans.

--- Didn't I tell you not to say things like bottom line and simply. LOOL. Obviously your not paying attention. Yes Albanians do belong in the top 5. I only organisation I would agree is ahead of the Albanians in New York would be the Italians. Those others are debatable.

End of story.

Go fuck yourself? Yes

[AlbaniaUnited]

The Albanians are not taking over the Italian Mafia, and they were never will be like the Italians were in the early 30's. To many indictments today, and Albanians cant really work with other criminal groups.

--- The Albanians have proven themselves able to work with other groups. Just because a Polish group said they feared Albanians because of the excessive violence they use doesn't mean they can't work with other groups. Albanian criminals also have been able to establish new activites in an entirely different state from the one in which they're operating. Taking Kadriovski for example. He was one of the most powerful heroin traffickers in Europe. Australian Federal Police were after Kadriovski after he went to their embassy in Athens for a new passport after allegedly creating a drug distribution centre among the Albanian and Croatian emigre communities in Sydney and Brisbane. See what I mean? They globalise. Kadriovski is in the United States for the time being and is one of the main suppliers of Gloden heroin. He for one, off the top of my head would be a lot more powerful then Alex Rudaj and make him look like a joke. Just because you have not heard of him it does not mean that he doesn't exist and that Alex Rudaj HAHAHAHA is the most HA powerful Albanian gangster in America. Oh man it made me laugh just saying he is the most powerful.

--- Despite efforts by law enforcement to curb Albanian activities, men such as Kadriovski continue to evade police. Using his lieutenants in the US, thefts and the like have increased, after a lag period during late 1995 and early 1996. Branching out from major cities, the Albanians from the Bronx, area have been accused of robberies from south Jersey, to Washington DC, to Philadelphia, Virginia, South Carolina, Detroit, and Chicago. By the beginning of 1996, authorities in New York had hoped that Albanian activity would decrease following the arrest of two of its regional leaders, Mirsad Pjitrovic and Vucksan `Ranko' Mickovic. Instead, coordinating their plans from such social hangouts as the Besa, Two Star and Gurra cafes in the Bronx, the Albanians actually increased their regional activities. This lending credence to the theory about a decentralized structure among these groups so that activity can continue regardless of leadership removal. Despite attempts to control their activities, police remain at a loss while the Albanians gain strength.

The Italians worked with the Jews and Irish which eventually led them to expand their operations unlike the Albanians. Do you know what alot of Albanian criminals did when they arrived to the US in the 90's? They basically told people to kick back or hand over construction sites, and they would do it by force and intimditation. Thats why most rich Albanians tell everybody they work in construction.

--- Whats wrong with that? They got rich didn't they? Albanians work with everybody. Albanians worked with the Italians the same way the Italians did with the Irish and Jews, at very first mainly for and with them. Later on, independently.

The Rudjai crew had about 2 dozen members and about 2 times that amount in associates. They are not even a glorified crew. The Westies or the Demeo's would of wiped them out.

--- Correction 'Richboy17' they had over two dozen members. And probably 3-5 times the associates. That would consist of more then a crew. Lol, you should know on this forum the words ''wipe them out'' cause a lot of friction. I don't know much about the 'westies'. Care to provide a membership estimate of what they were involved in or anything? Also for the Demeos.

[AlbaniaUnited]

I didn't say I knew more about organized crime than Capeci. I said that the FBI, Justice Department, and other federal and state law enforcement agencies know more than Capeci. Don't put words in my mouth. Capeci's figures were simply one estimate. But instead of looking at as many estimates as possible, you choose to go with that one estimate alone, even though it's low, because it helps your argument that the Rudaj gang almost equaled the Colombo Family.

---Well correct me if I'm wrong but you said that Jerry Capeci's estimate was too low. Then you gave us an estimate you think is proper. Which was 35-40 members higher the Capeci's. I said it before and I'll say it again, I'll take Jerry Capeci's word before yours any and everyday. Of course it helps my argument, but it wasent my estimate. It was Jerry Capeci's who has written entire books on the mafia. Hundreds of pages. The FBI counts every member alive. Active or inactive.

This whole argument began by you claiming that the Albanians are among the top groups in New York, "surpassing most other criminal organizations." At one point you said that you have even read reports that they are the top group in New York. Then you went on to say that because Albanian groups aren't as "sophisticated" as Italian and Russian groups, it doesn't mean they aren't as powerful and influential. In other words, you were implying that Albanian groups could be as powerful and influential as Italian and Russian groups. All this after you told JohnnyRed at one point that the Italians were the most powerful.

---So let me get this straight 'thewestside'. To you, sophistication equals power? Because the Italians are more sophisticated they are more powerful? 'thewestside' again, you have proven yourself as an awful reader. The Albanians are not as sophsiticated as the Italians. They use alot of aggression and violence doing things other criminals would not dare to do. I stated that I have read reports that went as far as to call the Albanian mafia the most prominent in New York. That still didn't change my opinion of what I thought before reading it. Albanians are structered simply around a few central leaders. It appears that the structure of these groups, due to their quick rise, success rates, and coordination of activities, suggest a hierarchical chain of command, that is intricate and based upon the Sicilian Mafia's system of bosses and under-bosses which revolves around blood and marriage relatives. Yet, it seems that in Europe, as well to some extent in the US, the chain of command is a decentralised one, that allows for flexibility among the small crews which carry out activity, while general directives flow from the top to the bottom. The Italians are structered hierarchially that's why they are stated as more "sophisticated". I told JohnnyRed what I still think now. The Italian mafia is still the most prominent criminal group in New York. The Albanians have not been here long enough to replace them and are not as rooted and entrenched in the New York system like the Italians are. I am not saying that my opinion is that Albanians surpass every group in New York. Like you stupidly imply I am every waking moment.

You claimed that you weren't basing your whole argument on the CNN video but you basically are. You think that simply because Albanians were mentioned in the video that that's proof they are among the top groups in New York, as well as assume that they are more powerful than other groups because they weren't mentioned, even though I told you that they weren't mentioned because not all of them are investigated by the FBI.

---Okay so if the FBI doesnt even bother investigating other groups. How would that make them more powerful then the Albanians? The FBI came down for CNN and stated that Asians in Chinatown, Russians and Albanians are the most serious criminal threats in New York. As the Italians continuesly lose influence and power, the Albanians and Russians continue to pick up the peices and take over lost land. Sometimes not even waiting for the Italians to lose territory but instead taking it by force.

Case in point, the Cubans. You just assumed that the Albanians are more powerful than they are even though you know nothing about the Cubans.

--- Yes I did think this without knowing anything about the Cubans because if Cubans showed that much criminal presence in New York. Something would pop up. I googled the 'Cuban Corporation' and for the first two pages all I seen were sources for actual corporations. After that I got tired of looking.

You said yourself that the Albanians were mentioned in the CNN report because they are among the biggest threats. If that's so, why is there little to no mention of Albanian groups mentioned in indictments or press reports since the Rudaj gang was taken down?

---More importantly why do YOU think that is? Are you implying that there are no other Albanian gangs? You say when was the last time you read of Albanians in indictments since the Rudaj gang? Last we heard of the Rudajs was two years ago. Do we have to hear of Albanian indictments every couple of months to prove that there is Albanian criminal presence in New York? When was the last Russian indictment? The last Chinese indictment, the last Cuban indictment? Albanians work in small groups revolving around a few central leaders. Indicting Albanians is much harder then indicting Italians. What would be easier, wire tapping or infiltrating a big group who speaks English and deals with many outsiders? Or wire tapping and infiltrating small groups who speak Albanian and dont let outsider get in too close? Exactly...

And speaking of the Rudaj gang, like JohnnyRed, you can't make up your mind about them. One minute you're saying they were almost a "sixth family," the next minute you're saying that they are nothing compared to other Albanian groups. I ask you for examples of these other groups and, like JohnnyRed, you give me Ismail Lika. You also mentioned the YACS groups but you apparently knew very little about those.

---I never said that they are nothing compared to other groups, again YOU put words in my mouth. I guess thats how you make an argument. I didnt give you Ismail Lika. He was in the 1980's. We are in 2008. I think your confusing me with JohnnyRed or again your just talking about things you would like to talk about with out reference to what I said. I stated that I can name easily off the top of my head three Albanian crime figures and 'outfits' (Rudaj, Lika, YACS, Zef Mustafa, Anton Spaci, Kadriovski).

---The YACS group is a succesfuly criminal gang, mostly composed of Albanians whose membership is estimated from 40-400. They cannot be certain because of the groups ability to rob across the nation. Not to mention the group was involved in drug trafficking as well as other things. it appeared that the Albanians operating within the US had a series of crews separated into premier and second class units depending upon the difficulty of the job. For example, the A-team would use oxygen tanks, and electro-magnetic core drill, rotary hammers and over one hundred metal drill rods capable of reaching temperatures between 9,000 and 10,000 degrees F. With skill and precision, they could use the torches without damaging either money and/or jewels within the safe. The A-team also has an intricate network of lookouts equipped with walkie-talkies, sophisticated police scanners, and often disables alarms and area communications boxes before an operation. The B-team is not as sophisticated. Consisting of between four and six men, the team often carries cutters and twenty pound sledgehammers with large steel wedges, and crowbars, used for prying open safes and ATM machine doors while one or two men stand lookout along with a driver. While lacking in sophistication the B-team makes up for it in brutality and cunning. These men are often Albanians from Albania, Kosovo, or Macedonia looking for quick money and with little skill.

Like JohnnyRed, you claimed that the Rudaj gang took over 7 gambling clubs even though they took over only 2. Then you bring up Johnny Sac from The Sopranos as some sort of support for your argument that the Rudaj gang was worth more than what was listed in the indictment. The Rudaj gang is now defunct but you choose to nickel and dime the argument by saying that not all of it's members were indicted.

--- No again you are talking foolishly and wrong. I dont remember what JohnnyRed said but what I did was list the seven most recent gambling spots the gangs controlled, opened or took over. I said I don't know how many clubs on that list belonged to the mafia before they took them over. But again you give us BS on your part speaking of things that didn't happen.

--- The Rudaj gang is mainly out of business. But like I said numerously. Not every member was convicted and not every member was indicted. So the members that beat the case are still active. Whether or not they call themselves the 'corporation' anymore is beyond me. I'm guessing they dont and might have started working for other criminal groups.

--- I brought up Johnny Sack because even though it is a fictional show, many things are accurate on that show as to the mafia life. They have mafia experts that work on the show. What I was trying to say is that Johnny Sack's indictment asked for an amount of money which his networth probably exceeded over ten times. You repeatedly say that Alex Rudaj was able to obtain about $5 million USD (even though the indictment asked for $5.8 million USD, shows how much you pay attention) and four properties. You go out of your way to downsize this man. Why I don't know. I say its because your Italian. You say your not. I think you are but dont say it to make people think that you have a neutral view point here. Almost everything you say is wrong and hyping up Italian OC. Your the Italian JohnnyRed my friend. Face it.

[quoted]You repeately accused me of being biased because I'm Italian, even though I've told you repeatedly that I am not. It's much like how JohnnyRed kept accusing me of editing the Wikipedia article on the Rudaj gang even though I repeatedly told him I didn't. And, like JohnnyRed, you throw out an inflated bogus estimate of the Albanian population in the U.S.[/quote]

--- Chances are you did edit the wikipedia article. Many of your sources come from wikipedia. A lot of what you said about the Rudajs can be found on the wikipedia page of him. LOOL. Its sad how far you go to downsize the Albanians.

--- The Albanian population is 113,000 people in America according to you. LOOOOOOL.


-http://blog.aacl.com/state-of-the-alb-nation/ (According to Joseph Dioguardi -Albanian-, the leader of the Albanian-American civic league). (550,000-750,000)

-http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all (500,000)

--- Must you fight me even on thie 'thewestside'? Do you honestly in your head think that you would know more then me about the Albanian population in America? Get real man, your on some power trip over here. You think you know everything. You want to be right about every single thing in existence.

Finally, like JohnnyRed and other Albanian posters, you claim that the incidents surrounding the Rudaj gang were a turning point or landmark in American organized crime. That the Rudaj gang temporarilly taking over two Greek clubs paying tribute to the LCN, holding their ground at the gas station meeting, and "taking over" Gotti's old table at Raos' is a sign that the Albanians are pushing aside La Cosa Nostra. If that's the case, why haven't other Albanians, or any other group, tried to take on the LCN like the Rudaj gang did? Surely if the Albanians were taking over as you contend, there would be more indictments of them and press reports about them.

--- LOOOOOOL. So all those things are nothing is what your saying? Pointing a gun at a boss? Taking over two Gambino and Lucchese crime family protected clubs? This is nothing? How so? Last time I heard pointing a gun at someones face and telling them to drop there guns and get out of here is a sign of disrespect. What I want to bring to your attention is that if the Albanians were sooooooo freakishly small and weak compared to the Italians how would they do such a thing? I already told you my stance on New York crime. But you hype the Italians up way too much. You should understand that while the Italians do hold the majority share of the New York criminal world their majority percentage is much smaller now due to much competition.

Bottom line, would the Albanians be in the top 10 organized crime groups in New York? Yes. Top 5? No, because they take a back seat to at least the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Colombians, and Cubans.

--- Didn't I tell you not to say things like bottom line and simply. LOOL. Obviously your not paying attention. Yes Albanians do belong in the top 5. I only organisation I would agree is ahead of the Albanians in New York would be the Italians. Those others are debatable.

End of story.

Go fu-- yourself? Yes [/quote]

[thewestside]

Well correct me if I'm wrong but you said that Jerry Capeci's estimate was too low. Then you gave us an estimate you think is proper. Which was 35-40 members higher the Capeci's. I said it before and I'll say it again, I'll take Jerry Capeci's word before yours any and everyday. Of course it helps my argument, but it wasent my estimate. It was Jerry Capeci's who has written entire books on the mafia. Hundreds of pages. The FBI counts every member alive. Active or inactive.

I didn’t give you an estimate of what I thought was proper. I gave you the average of multiple estimates from federal and state authorities over several years. Capeci gets his information from the authorities as well. But his was only a single estimate among many. And, compared to the others, his estimate of the Colombo Family was low. If you cared about accuracy, you would research other estimates as well. You aren’t taking Capeci’s word over my word. You are taking Capeci’s word, which comes from one official estimate, over the average of several official estimates. And you are content to do this because you feel his relatively low estimate of 75-85 Colombo members bolsters your claim that the Rudaj gang almost equalled the Colombo Family.

And event there you are wrong. Even if you went with the highest probable member total for the Rudaj gang, as well as went with this low estimate from Capeci for the Colombos, the Rudaj gang would still probably only be half the size of the Colombo Family. And that’s not counting the hundreds of associates that work for the Colombos. But I’ll take it even further. Even if the Rudaj gang matched the Colombos man for man, they still wouldn’t match them in power. Their illicit activities (illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion, etc.) weren’t as big as the Colombo’s operations. Nor did the Rudaj gang have any interests in legitimate businesses or industries like the Colombos do.

Let’s look at it one more time. The Rudaj gang operated some gambling clubs in the Bronx, Westchester, and Queens. They were estimated to have 50+ video poker machines. They later branched out into loansharking and other crimes. The leaders of the gang were able to amass at least $5.8 million worth of legitimate property.
How does this even begin to match a New York LCN family in any way? Even the Colombos, who are the smallest? Answer: it doesn’t. Not by a long shot. This is more comparable to a single LCN crew.

So let me get this straight 'thewestside'. To you, sophistication equals power? Because the Italians are more sophisticated they are more powerful? 'thewestside' again, you have proven yourself as an awful reader. The Albanians are not as sophsiticated as the Italians. They use alot of aggression and violence doing things other criminals would not dare to do. I stated that I have read reports that went as far as to call the Albanian mafia the most prominent in New York. That still didn't change my opinion of what I thought before reading it. Albanians are structered simply around a few central leaders. It appears that the structure of these groups, due to their quick rise, success rates, and coordination of activities, suggest a hierarchical chain of command, that is intricate and based upon the Sicilian Mafia's system of bosses and under-bosses which revolves around blood and marriage relatives. Yet, it seems that in Europe, as well to some extent in the US, the chain of command is a decentralised one, that allows for flexibility among the small crews which carry out activity, while general directives flow from the top to the bottom. The Italians are structered hierarchially that's why they are stated as more "sophisticated". I told JohnnyRed what I still think now. The Italian mafia is still the most prominent criminal group in New York. The Albanians have not been here long enough to replace them and are not as rooted and entrenched in the New York system like the Italians are. I am not saying that my opinion is that Albanians surpass every group in New York. Like you stupidly imply I am every waking moment.

You said that the Albanians surpass most other groups in New York. Some they do, others they don’t.

Yes, sophistication is one element of power. The sophistication of La Cosa Nostra is what has given it it’s power over the years and separated it from other crime groups in the U.S. Any group can have enforcers and leg breakers. The LCN does as well but that’s not where it’s true power has come from. It’s true power has come from it’s sophistication. And it’s sophistication comes from several things. Not just in how it is organized. Russian groups are not typically structured along the same hierarchial lines as La Cosa Nostra but they are also considered more sophisticated (and powerful) than Albanian groups.

Remember the restaurant analogy I gave a while back? I said that any group could send enforcers into it to extort weekly protection money. But the LCN doesn’t necessarily need to do that. Why? Because it may already control the restaurant’s garbage pickup. It’s food, beverage, and linen services. The union that represents it’s workers. Rather than send in goons, the LCN can “extort” the restaurant by simply inflating the price of the garbage, food, beverage, and linen. Or it can extort the restaurant by threatening a union strike. Other groups don’t have these avenues. They only have the threat of physical violence. Guess which one is harder for law enforcement to root out? The LCN’s method is quasi-legimate while the method of other groups is clearly criminal. Do you see the difference? What the LCN has is sophistication. The source of it’s true power. What other groups have is common thuggery.

Okay so if the FBI doesnt even bother investigating other groups. How would that make them more powerful then the Albanians? The FBI came down for CNN and stated that Asians in Chinatown, Russians and Albanians are the most serious criminal threats in New York. As the Italians continuesly lose influence and power, the Albanians and Russians continue to pick up the peices and take over lost land. Sometimes not even waiting for the Italians to lose territory but instead taking it by force.

Generally speaking, certain federal agencies have investigative jurisdiction over certain criminal groups. The FBI typically investigates Italian/La Cosa Nostra, Eurasian, Asian, Balkan, Middle Eastern, and African crime groups. Groups that are primarily involved in drug trafficking alone are typically investigated by the DEA, i.e. the Colombians, Mexicans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, Jamaicans, etc. By the same token, the ATF generally investigates Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs. There is sometimes some overlap but this is generally how it goes. That’s why the CNN report, which was quoting FBI sources, mentioned Italian, Russian, Asian, and Albanian groups and didn’t mention Colombian, Mexican, Dominican, or Cuban groups. Go back and watch the CNN video again. It only said that Italian organized crime is still the most serious organized crime threat. It mentioned other groups, including the Albanians, but didn’t say anything about them. You were only hearing what you wanted to hear, not what the news report actually said. Also, give me one example of where the Albanians are taking over LCN operations by force besides the Rudaj gang. You can't.

Yes I did think this without knowing anything about the Cubans because if Cubans showed that much criminal presence in New York. Something would pop up. I googled the 'Cuban Corporation' and for the first two pages all I seen were sources for actual corporations. After that I got tired of looking.

Read the summary of the Cuban Corporation in the State of New Jersey report I gave you. Read The New Ethnic Mobs by William Kleinknecht. In other words, do some actual research on other groups besides the Albanians. The Cubans control most of the illegal gambling in the Hispanic areas of New York, New Jersey, and Florida. Huge numbers, bookmaking, and video gambling operations that are next only to those of La Cosa Nostra. They are also involved in major drug trafficking operations, as well as other criminal activities. The Corporation’s founder and longtime boss, the late Jose Miguel Battle, was estimated to be worth $175 million when he died. When the top leaders of the Corporation were prosecuted, authorities looked to seize $642 million from the organization. Show me one Albanian group in New York or anywhere else in the U.S. that has this kind of money or scope of operations.

More importantly why do YOU think that is? Are you implying that there are no other Albanian gangs? You say when was the last time you read of Albanians in indictments since the Rudaj gang? Last we heard of the Rudajs was two years ago. Do we have to hear of Albanian indictments every couple of months to prove that there is Albanian criminal presence in New York? When was the last Russian indictment? The last Chinese indictment, the last Cuban indictment? Albanians work in small groups revolving around a few central leaders. Indicting Albanians is much harder then indicting Italians. What would be easier, wire tapping or infiltrating a big group who speaks English and deals with many outsiders? Or wire tapping and infiltrating small groups who speak Albanian and dont let outsider get in too close? Exactly...

I don’t need monthly indictments or news reports to tell me that there are Albanian crime groups in New York. Or Russian, Chinese, and Cuban groups for that matter. What is needed, if your assertion that Albanian groups are as among the top groups in New York and pushing aside La Cosa Nostra, is more evidence than the Rudaj gang alone. Albanian groups pose enough of a threat to where they are now one of the FBI’s investigative priorities. But that doesn’t mean they are as powerful or present the same threat as certain other groups. You assume that they do simply because they might be mentioned in the same sentence as the Italians, Russians, or Chinese. You have the same basic problem JohnnyRed has. You don’t know enough about other groups outside of the Albanians. If you did, you wouldn’t be claiming that the Albanians match them.

I never said that they are nothing compared to other groups, again YOU put words in my mouth. I guess thats how you make an argument. I didnt give you Ismail Lika. He was in the 1980's. We are in 2008. I think your confusing me with JohnnyRed or again your just talking about things you would like to talk about with out reference to what I said. I stated that I can name easily off the top of my head three Albanian crime figures and 'outfits' (Rudaj, Lika, YACS, Zef Mustafa, Anton Spaci, Kadriovski).

---The YACS group is a succesfuly criminal gang, mostly composed of Albanians whose membership is estimated from 40-400. They cannot be certain because of the groups ability to rob across the nation. Not to mention the group was involved in drug trafficking as well as other things. it appeared that the Albanians operating within the US had a series of crews separated into premier and second class units depending upon the difficulty of the job. For example, the A-team would use oxygen tanks, and electro-magnetic core drill, rotary hammers and over one hundred metal drill rods capable of reaching temperatures between 9,000 and 10,000 degrees F. With skill and precision, they could use the torches without damaging either money and/or jewels within the safe. The A-team also has an intricate network of lookouts equipped with walkie-talkies, sophisticated police scanners, and often disables alarms and area communications boxes before an operation. The B-team is not as sophisticated. Consisting of between four and six men, the team often carries cutters and twenty pound sledgehammers with large steel wedges, and crowbars, used for prying open safes and ATM machine doors while one or two men stand lookout along with a driver. While lacking in sophistication the B-team makes up for it in brutality and cunning. These men are often Albanians from Albania, Kosovo, or Macedonia looking for quick money and with little skill.

You said you hate how everyone says that Rudaj was the most powerful Albanian mobster in New York, thereby insinuating there are more powerful Albanian mobsters. Who? The Rudaj gang is now defunct. Lika is a single drug trafficker from the past. Zef Mustafa is also a single Albanian criminal but, like many Albanians, he works for the LCN. YACS are burglary rings, typical of much of Albanian organized crime at this point. Anton Spaci was an enforcer that worked for both the LCN and Albanian groups.

No again you are talking foolishly and wrong. I dont remember what JohnnyRed said but what I did was list the seven most recent gambling spots the gangs controlled, opened or took over. I said I don't know how many clubs on that list belonged to the mafia before they took them over. But again you give us BS on your part speaking of things that didn't happen.

The Rudaj gang is mainly out of business. But like I said numerously. Not every member was convicted and not every member was indicted. So the members that beat the case are still active. Whether or not they call themselves the 'corporation' anymore is beyond me. I'm guessing they dont and might have started working for other criminal groups.

The Rudaj gang controlled several clubs in the Bronx, Westchester, and Queens but they only took over two that had any connection to La Cosa Nostra. And those were Stamatis and Soccer Fever in Queens, two Greek gambling clubs that were paying tribute to the Lucchese and Gambino Families.

But I should also point out something here. A primary reason the Rudaj gang was able to do this, as officials have said, was because the Gambino and Lucchese families were weakened by law enforcement prosecutions at this point, i.e. mid-1990’s to mid-2000’s. By contrast, the Genovese and Bonanno families were considered very strong during this same time frame. The Genovese still are. Did you see the Rudaj gang going after any Genovese or Bonanno clubs? Or any clubs directly controlled by the LCN for that matter? No. They went after Greek clubs that were paying tribute to the LCN.

I brought up Johnny Sack because even though it is a fictional show, many things are accurate on that show as to the mafia life. They have mafia experts that work on the show. What I was trying to say is that Johnny Sack's indictment asked for an amount of money which his networth probably exceeded over ten times. You repeatedly say that Alex Rudaj was able to obtain about $5 million USD (even though the indictment asked for $5.8 million USD, shows how much you pay attention) and four properties. You go out of your way to downsize this man. Why I don't know. I say its because your Italian. You say your not. I think you are but dont say it to make people think that you have a neutral view point here. Almost everything you say is wrong and hyping up Italian OC. Your the Italian JohnnyRed my friend. Face it.

I’m have no interest in “downsizing” Alex Rudaj or his gang. It’s just that I have to constantly correct Albanian posters like you, JohnnyRed, and others who habitually overestimate the Rudaj gang and overhype Albanian organized crime in general. To this point you have gotten numerous things wrong on any number of issues and you’re accusing me of not paying attention simply because I was off by $800,000 on the worth of the Rudaj gang’s property listed in the indictment? You say that what was listed in the indictment was probably not the total worth of the Rudaj gang and you use the Johnny Sac example to prove your point. OK, let’s say for argument’s sake the Rudaj gang had property worth ten times what was listed in the indictment. $5.8 x 10 = $58 million. Even then the gang wouldn’t have been as wealthy as the Colombos, the smallest LCN family in New York.

Chances are you did edit the wikipedia article. Many of your sources come from wikipedia. A lot of what you said about the Rudajs can be found on the wikipedia page of him. LOOL. Its sad how far you go to downsize the Albanians.

Chances are I edited the Wikipedia article because you say so? Or JohnnyRed? I rarely refer to Wikipedia about anything, especially organized crime. My sources don’t come from Wikipedia. Rather, some of the information I have, which have come from other sources (press released, indictments, government reports, articles, etc.) is put on Wikipedia by other people.

Case in point – the Rudaj article. JohnnyRed has long accused me of editing that article, even though I have repeatedly told him I did not and don’t even know how to edit articles on that website. But he kept insisting I did so one day I decided to look and see what was exactly on it. Lo and behold, there was one sentence in the article that was exactly the same as what I had typed on this forum in a previous discussion. Word for word. Now I want both you and JohnnyRed to think about this for a minute. If it had been me editing that article, would I have used the EXACT same wording that I used here in that sentence? What are the chances of that? If it had been me, typing at a different time than I had previously, at least a word or two would have been different. But it was the exact same, word for word. What happened is quite obvious. Somebody who had read my posts here went on to the article and posted it. Probably cut and pasted it. But that somebody wasn’t me.

And that’s what you and JohnnyRed need to understand. I couldn’t care less what Wikipedia says. I certainly don’t care enough to post on it, especially when what you contribute can be edited or deleted by other people. The only ones that care what Wikipedia says are people like you and JohnnyRed. I’ve often wondered why that is. In my opinion, it comes from the same insecurity that causes you and other Albanian posters to hype Albanian organized crime in general. Albanian posters are notorious on organized crime forums and message boards for wreaking havoc by constantly beating the drum of Albanian domination. I know of one guy who’s forum was ruined by Albanian posters doing this very thing. JohnnyRed himself has done it on this forum, as well as at least one other that I know of. You came here and, in the beginning, were pretty reasonable. But over time you morphed into just another typical Albanian poster like JohnnyRed. You accuse others who don’t agree with you as being biased and trying to downsize the Albanians, when in reality, they don’t agree with you because it’s you who is biased and constantly overhyping the Albanians simply because you are Albanian.

The Albanian population is 113,000 people in America according to you. LOOOOOOL.

-http://blog.aacl.com/state-of-the-alb-nation/ (According to Joseph Dioguardi -Albanian-, the leader of the Albanian-American civic league). (550,000-750,000)

-http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all (500,000)

No, not according to me. According to the 2000 U.S. Census. It stated that there were 113,661 people that claimed Albanian ancestry that year. Now, this likely didn’t include all Albanians in the country. But it was probably much closer to the real figure than 500,000.

Must you fight me even on thie 'thewestside'? Do you honestly in your head think that you would know more then me about the Albanian population in America? Get real man, your on some power trip over here. You think you know everything. You want to be right about every single thing in existence.

I don’t think I know more than you about the Albanian population in the U.S. I think the U.S. Census Bureau knows more than you. I don’t think I know everything and I am not on some power trip. I simply find myself having to correct the falsehoods that some people post on this forum. First it was JohnnyRed. Now it's you. And coincidentally (probably not) you both are Albanian. Go figure.

LOOOOOOL. So all those things are nothing is what your saying? Pointing a gun at a boss? Taking over two Gambino and Lucchese crime family protected clubs? This is nothing? How so? Last time I heard pointing a gun at someones face and telling them to drop there guns and get out of here is a sign of disrespect. What I want to bring to your attention is that if the Albanians were sooooooo freakishly small and weak compared to the Italians how would they do such a thing? I already told you my stance on New York crime. But you hype the Italians up way too much. You should understand that while the Italians do hold the majority share of the New York criminal world their majority percentage is much smaller now due to much competition.

I didn’t say what the Rudaj gang did was “nothing.” I said that what they did in no way whatsoever signalled a major turning point in organized crime. It in no way proves that the Albanian are replacing the LCN families in New York. The Rudaj gang had balls and they showed disrespect to the LCN but they, nor any other Albanian group, are even close to being able to compete with a New York LCN family.

And just for the record, let’s get a few more details straight here. First, Arnold “Zeke” Squitieri was the acting boss of the Gambino family at the time, not the boss. A minor detail but it needed correction. Second, the Rudaj gang didn’t point their guns in the Gambino’s faces and tell them to drop their guns. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered by the Gambinos and so one of the Rudaj guys pointed his shotgun at a gas pump and threatened to blow everyone up if the Gambinos didn’t back off. Squitieri ordered his guys to back off, not because he was afraid of the Rudaj guys, but because he thought they just might be crazy enough to shoot the gas pump. Now what does this show? It showed that the Rudaj guys were willing to hold their ground against the Gambinos. The Rudaj guys taking over two Greek clubs paying tribute to the LCN showed that they didn’t respect the LCN. But none of this is evidence that the Rudaj gang specifically, or the Albanians in general, or anywhere close to pushing aside La Cosa Nostra.

Didn't I tell you not to say things like bottom line and simply. LOOL. Obviously your not paying attention. Yes Albanians do belong in the top 5. I only organisation I would agree is ahead of the Albanians in New York would be the Italians. Those others are debatable.

OK, so you agree that the Italians are more powerful than the Albanians. Try to stick with that opinion and not back peddle two days from now. I’ve already explained why the Cubans are more powerful than the Albanians. The Colombians are the dominant suppliers of all illegal drugs to the Northeast, including New York. That alone makes them more powerful than the Albanians. Like most crime groups outside of La Cosa Nostra, including the Albanians, the Chinese operate mainly within their own communities. But the scope and diversification of the Chinese’ operations is much larger than that of the Albanians. And the Chinese, as a group, have been in this country for much longer. Next to La Cosa Nostra, Russian and other Eurasian crime groups are the most significant organized crime investigative priority for the FBI. And they too have been in this country longer as a group than the Albanians. How exactly do the Albanians match them or any of the other groups mentioned above?

Go fu-- yourself? Yes

In the end, much like JohnnyRed, you simply resort to childish insults because you really don’t have anything else.

[AlbaniaUnited]

I didn’t give you an estimate of what I thought was proper. I gave you the average of multiple estimates from federal and state authorities over several years. Capeci gets his information from the authorities as well. But his was only a single estimate among many. And, compared to the others, his estimate of the Colombo Family was low. If you cared about accuracy, you would research other estimates as well. You aren’t taking Capeci’s word over my word. You are taking Capeci’s word, which comes from one official estimate, over the average of several official estimates. And you are content to do this because you feel his relatively low estimate of 75-85 Colombo members bolsters your claim that the Rudaj gang almost equalled the Colombo Family.

((()))Capeci is highly involved in investigating and researching La Cosa Nostra in the United States. His research and estimates derives from extensive work in the matter. You only google La Cosa Nostra and find a couple of estimates and give us a number in between. This is why I am going to stick to my estimate originationg from Capeci's estimate that the Colombo Family only has 75-85 members. I don't wish to bolster my claim that the Rudaj Organisation almost equaled the Colombo family. The Rudaj Organisation only had 30-35 members. The Colombos have 75-85. So that's 40-50 more members.

And event there you are wrong. Even if you went with the highest probable member total for the Rudaj gang, as well as went with this low estimate from Capeci for the Colombos, the Rudaj gang would still probably only be half the size of the Colombo Family. And that’s not counting the hundreds of associates that work for the Colombos. But I’ll take it even further. Even if the Rudaj gang matched the Colombos man for man, they still wouldn’t match them in power. Their illicit activities (illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion, etc.) weren’t as big as the Colombo’s operations. Nor did the Rudaj gang have any interests in legitimate businesses or industries like the Colombos do.

((()))I never said they matched the Colombo Family. I said they almost amount the Colombos in numbers. They only amount to half the Colombos in numbers and less then half in total power. Although manpower would be up for debate. Clean out your ears mister.

Let’s look at it one more time. The Rudaj gang operated some gambling clubs in the Bronx, Westchester, and Queens. They were estimated to have 50+ video poker machines. They later branched out into loansharking and other crimes. The leaders of the gang were able to amass at least $5.8 million worth of legitimate property.
How does this even begin to match a New York LCN family in any way? Even the Colombos, who are the smallest? Answer: it doesn’t. Not by a long shot. This is more comparable to a single LCN crew.

Not some, but 50 gambling spots through-out New York. You speak of the leaders purchasing $5.8 million worth of properties as if it is all the money they had. Obviously if they spent that much money on just properties they would have more.

You said that the Albanians surpass most other groups in New York. Some they do, others they don’t.

((()))Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

Yes, sophistication is one element of power. The sophistication of La Cosa Nostra is what has given it it’s power over the years and separated it from other crime groups in the U.S. Any group can have enforcers and leg breakers. The LCN does as well but that’s not where it’s true power has come from. It’s true power has come from it’s sophistication. And it’s sophistication comes from several things. Not just in how it is organized. Russian groups are not typically structured along the same hierarchial lines as La Cosa Nostra but they are also considered more sophisticated (and powerful) than Albanian groups.

((())) And just who stated that they are more powerful? You? Sophistication is but one factor of power

Remember the restaurant analogy I gave a while back? I said that any group could send enforcers into it to extort weekly protection money. But the LCN doesn’t necessarily need to do that. Why? Because it may already control the restaurant’s garbage pickup. It’s food, beverage, and linen services. The union that represents it’s workers. Rather than send in goons, the LCN can “extort” the restaurant by simply inflating the price of the garbage, food, beverage, and linen. Or it can extort the restaurant by threatening a union strike. Other groups don’t have these avenues. They only have the threat of physical violence. Guess which one is harder for law enforcement to root out? The LCN’s method is quasi-legimate while the method of other groups is clearly criminal. Do you see the difference? What the LCN has is sophistication. The source of it’s true power. What other groups have is common thuggery.

((()))Whats your point here? No I don't remember your restaurant analogy. The Albanians would walk in there and tell them straight, pay or be ruined. The Russians will go in there and light a picture of their business on fire in front of them and walk out. Either way both the Albanians and Russians are capable of extorting the bussiness. The Italians might be able to easier but its not the way you do it its what you do.

Generally speaking, certain federal agencies have investigative jurisdiction over certain criminal groups. The FBI typically investigates Italian/La Cosa Nostra, Eurasian, Asian, Balkan, Middle Eastern, and African crime groups. Groups that are primarily involved in drug trafficking alone are typically investigated by the DEA, i.e. the Colombians, Mexicans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, Jamaicans, etc. By the same token, the ATF generally investigates Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs. There is sometimes some overlap but this is generally how it goes. That’s why the CNN report, which was quoting FBI sources, mentioned Italian, Russian, Asian, and Albanian groups and didn’t mention Colombian, Mexican, Dominican, or Cuban groups. Go back and watch the CNN video again. It only said that Italian organized crime is still the most serious organized crime threat. It mentioned other groups, including the Albanians, but didn’t say anything about them. You were only hearing what you wanted to hear, not what the news report actually said. Also, give me one example of where the Albanians are taking over LCN operations by force besides the Rudaj gang. You can't.

((()))And just what was I hearing? I told you that the Albanians were stated alongside the Chinese and Russians. So how does that qualify as hearing what I want to hear? What did you hear? I heard the Albanians being mentioned and thats what I stated. Did I lie? Or is this another way you turn the argument into shit. Can I name an Albanian stupid enough to attract as much heat to himself as Rudaj did? No. do I want to? No. Rudaj did nothing special. He had a very typical Albanian mentality. Not caring about who you are just doing what he wanted. He was the first non-Italian to stick a gun in a La Cosa Nostra boss' face. Not to mention to took over a club paying tribute to the same boss and also sat in the seat of former Gambino boss John Gotti in Rao's. Man, he really had it out for the Gambinos to spit at them that many times. lol. Also, why would I need to give you another example? Isn't Alex Rudaj an example? Did he not take over a club paying the LCN for operating there. That would be considered by force. You see how worked up you get just because I said "sometimes not even waiting for the Italians to lose ground but taking it by force". Why don't you just admit your Italian?

Read the summary of the Cuban Corporation in the State of New Jersey report I gave you. Read The New Ethnic Mobs by William Kleinknecht. In other words, do some actual research on other groups besides the Albanians. The Cubans control most of the illegal gambling in the Hispanic areas of New York, New Jersey, and Florida. Huge numbers, bookmaking, and video gambling operations that are next only to those of La Cosa Nostra. They are also involved in major drug trafficking operations, as well as other criminal activities. The Corporation’s founder and longtime boss, the late Jose Miguel Battle, was estimated to be worth $175 million when he died. When the top leaders of the Corporation were prosecuted, authorities looked to seize $642 million from the organization. Show me one Albanian group in New York or anywhere else in the U.S. that has this kind of money or scope of operations.

((()))I do research on almost every group with significant presence in the United States. But I can't do research about an organisation I never heard about. Most of the Cuban Corporations operationg are in Florida, I know that much about them. The Rudaj Organisation was based and was limited in New York. Why must you compare the two? I'll answer that. Because you will say anything to downsize the Albanians.

I don’t need monthly indictments or news reports to tell me that there are Albanian crime groups in New York. Or Russian, Chinese, and Cuban groups for that matter. What is needed, if your assertion that Albanian groups are as among the top groups in New York and pushing aside La Cosa Nostra, is more evidence than the Rudaj gang alone. Albanian groups pose enough of a threat to where they are now one of the FBI’s investigative priorities. But that doesn’t mean they are as powerful or present the same threat as certain other groups. You assume that they do simply because they might be mentioned in the same sentence as the Italians, Russians, or Chinese. You have the same basic problem JohnnyRed has. You don’t know enough about other groups outside of the Albanians. If you did, you wouldn’t be claiming that the Albanians match them.

((()))Correction you have the same problem Johnny does. You hate Albanians like Johnny hates Italians. Both of you are biased because of it. You downsize Albanians and Johnny downsizes Italians. You do not care about the facts, nor you or Johnny. More evidence if there. Research it yourself. Albanian organised crime in the United States. Google it. Much information comes up. If you cared to enhance your research a little you would know. You don't even know of Daut Kadriovki who is operating in the United States as we speak. I bet you never even heard of him. He works through-out New York and Philadelphia. But of course because your ignorant that means Alex Rudaj must be the top Albanian gangster in America. There are Albanian gangsters in even Canada that put Rudaj to shame.

You said you hate how everyone says that Rudaj was the most powerful Albanian mobster in New York, thereby insinuating there are more powerful Albanian mobsters. Who? The Rudaj gang is now defunct. Lika is a single drug trafficker from the past. Zef Mustafa is also a single Albanian criminal but, like many Albanians, he works for the LCN. YACS are burglary rings, typical of much of Albanian organized crime at this point. Anton Spaci was an enforcer that worked for both the LCN and Albanian groups.

((()))Ismail Lika was not a single drug trafficker. He has members in his own 'organisation'. No estimation has been given but he had his own crew most of which were Albanian. He was not a single drug trafficker. Zef Mustafa worked with the LCN not for. Anton Spaci was of no signficance, he was just a name that poped in my head while I was writing.
You honestly believe that Alex Rudaj was the most powerful Albanian gangster? He is the most famour I'll give him that. Because of his media worth ways of conducting business. But by no means was the biggest Albanian gangster in the United States. What about the Albanian drug circles? Are you forgetting about that. Albanian have gained the most noriety for drug trafficking. Not gambling like Rudaj. But as I continue to say repeatedly. You will not hear of Albanian organisation getting indicted like Rudaj. They do not operate in that way. There is way too many Albanian gangsters here in New York for Alex Rudaj to be crowned the top. I personally have witnessed Albanian organised crime right here in New York. Friends of my cousins shot a waiter dead for the level of service provide to them. Right here in the Bronx an Albanian ran a guy over because he insulted him inside a cafe, gun fights right in the stores. A few years ago an Albanian got shot right in the head two times before leaving his car here in the Bronx. There is no possible way that Alex Rudaj can be the top gangster. Kadriovski alone is evidence enough to prove that Rudaj takes a back seat to someone. Albanian gangsters are not on display on the internet like the Italians are. The only way Kadriovski is even mentioned is because of his profile in Europe as one of the top heroin traffickers. You can't google 'Albanian gangsters' and comes a list of names in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhatten, Staten Island. With the Italians you can because many people have a fascination with them due to the past (Al Capone, Salvatore Lucania, John Gotti). Concluding my statement, why do you consistently keep asking me to mention Albanians bigger then Rudaj? You must honestly think he is the most powerful, if thats the case. Your ignorant.

The Rudaj gang controlled several clubs in the Bronx, Westchester, and Queens but they only took over two that had any connection to La Cosa Nostra. And those were Stamatis and Soccer Fever in Queens, two Greek gambling clubs that were paying tribute to the Lucchese and Gambino Families.

50 Gambling spots not just several. Several dozens.

But I should also point out something here. A primary reason the Rudaj gang was able to do this, as officials have said, was because the Gambino and Lucchese families were weakened by law enforcement prosecutions at this point, i.e. mid-1990’s to mid-2000’s. By contrast, the Genovese and Bonanno families were considered very strong during this same time frame. The Genovese still are. Did you see the Rudaj gang going after any Genovese or Bonanno clubs? Or any clubs directly controlled by the LCN for that matter? No. They went after Greek clubs that were paying tribute to the LCN.

((()))Lmao, okay so your asking me why didn't they target Genovese clubs instead of Gambino and Lucchese clubs? That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They beat up made men, what more do you want? Even if they didn't take over a club directly controlled by the LCN, they beat down made members of the mafia. Thats even worse.

I’m have no interest in “downsizing” Alex Rudaj or his gang. It’s just that I have to constantly correct Albanian posters like you, JohnnyRed, and others who habitually overestimate the Rudaj gang and overhype Albanian organized crime in general. To this point you have gotten numerous things wrong on any number of issues and you’re accusing me of not paying attention simply because I was off by $800,000 on the worth of the Rudaj gang’s property listed in the indictment? You say that what was listed in the indictment was probably not the total worth of the Rudaj gang and you use the Johnny Sac example to prove your point. OK, let’s say for argument’s sake the Rudaj gang had property worth ten times what was listed in the indictment. $5.8 x 10 = $58 million. Even then the gang wouldn’t have been as wealthy as the Colombos, the smallest LCN family in New York.

((()))See now your talking, at least you have the decency to talk rationally now. I do not hype up Albanian organise crime. I defend it when ignorant people on the matter downsize them. I just feel I should put them in their place. Rudaj built an entire building in Shkoder, Albania. As well through-out the same city. He also has a restaurant in Montenegro right on the beach. How do I know this you might ask after you call me a bullshitter? Because I know people that were very close to Rudaj and I personally seen his building which has his last name on it.

Chances are I edited the Wikipedia article because you say so? Or JohnnyRed? I rarely refer to Wikipedia about anything, especially organized crime. My sources don’t come from Wikipedia. Rather, some of the information I have, which have come from other sources (press released, indictments, government reports, articles, etc.) is put on Wikipedia by other people.

Case in point – the Rudaj article. JohnnyRed has long accused me of editing that article, even though I have repeatedly told him I did not and don’t even know how to edit articles on that website. But he kept insisting I did so one day I decided to look and see what was exactly on it. Lo and behold, there was one sentence in the article that was exactly the same as what I had typed on this forum in a previous discussion. Word for word. Now I want both you and JohnnyRed to think about this for a minute. If it had been me editing that article, would I have used the EXACT same wording that I used here in that sentence? What are the chances of that? If it had been me, typing at a different time than I had previously, at least a word or two would have been different. But it was the exact same, word for word. What happened is quite obvious. Somebody who had read my posts here went on to the article and posted it. Probably cut and pasted it. But that somebody wasn’t me.

((()))It probably was you. You come on here lying about not being Italian, why wouldn't you do the same about editing wikipedia? You rely on wikipedia for many of your statements. 113,000 Albanians in America is also found on wikipedia. lol. Wikipedia is not a reliable source 'thewestside' so stop using it and for god's sake please dont go to the extreme measures of editing it yourself to further your argument.

And that’s what you and JohnnyRed need to understand. I couldn’t care less what Wikipedia says. I certainly don’t care enough to post on it, especially when what you contribute can be edited or deleted by other people. The only ones that care what Wikipedia says are people like you and JohnnyRed. I’ve often wondered why that is. In my opinion, it comes from the same insecurity that causes you and other Albanian posters to hype Albanian organized crime in general. Albanian posters are notorious on organized crime forums and message boards for wreaking havoc by constantly beating the drum of Albanian domination. I know of one guy who’s forum was ruined by Albanian posters doing this very thing. JohnnyRed himself has done it on this forum, as well as at least one other that I know of. You came here and, in the beginning, were pretty reasonable. But over time you morphed into just another typical Albanian poster like JohnnyRed. You accuse others who don’t agree with you as being biased and trying to downsize the Albanians, when in reality, they don’t agree with you because it’s you who is biased and constantly overhyping the Albanians simply because you are Albanian.

((()))LOOL all you do is get on people's nerves 'thewestside'. JohnnyRed could have been a saint before talking to you. You never know. First your talking about organised crime in New York then you wonder off and talk about Albanian posters. It's you who is biased and consistently hyping the Italians. The Italians control this and do that, are involved in this and do that. The Italians are inovled in alot, yes. What your forgetting to mention is that the Italians are weakening severely by the year. Eighty member just this year alone. In ten years the La Cosa Nostra will no longer be the most serious threat to New York City. This is what you don't say, instead you hype them up by saying oh no no no, the Italians are still involved in garment, haahahahah, the Italians have no where near the influence they did in any of the industries they are still involved in today. Or the unions for that matter. And I have a very hard time believing that Russians pay a tax to the Italians in New York. I will be needing proof for that by you 'theeastside'.

I don’t think I know more than you about the Albanian population in the U.S. I think the U.S. Census Bureau knows more than you. I don’t think I know everything and I am not on some power trip. I simply find myself having to correct the falsehoods that some people post on this forum. First it was JohnnyRed. Now it's you. And coincidentally (probably not) you both are Albanian. Go figure.

((()))Its a census. 113,000 people claimed Albanian ancestry. How would they claim it? How would they know? Go door to door? I guess the Albanian-American civic league means nothing to you. They could personally ask the city of New York for a estimate of Albanian residents residing in New York for their organisation as well as can the U.S. Census but the Albanian-American civic league would actually go into it. The U.S. Census had to established the population of every ethnic group and probably did not go into it as well as the AAL would have. The Albanian population in America is 550,000-750,000. Just leave it there 'theeastside'. This is proof that you wish to downsize every aspect of Albanian life, criminal or not. Then you say your not biased. If you werent biased you wouldn't care and shrug off the number even if it was a lie which it is most certainly not.

I didn’t say what the Rudaj gang did was “nothing.” I said that what they did in no way whatsoever signalled a major turning point in organized crime. It in no way proves that the Albanian are replacing the LCN families in New York. The Rudaj gang had balls and they showed disrespect to the LCN but they, nor any other Albanian group, are even close to being able to compete with a New York LCN family.

((()))I don't know about that. You say that with no research in the matter. If you were not ignorant and spoke with reason you would say no Albanian group has been made public to be bigger then any LCN crime family in New York City. But instead you say what you say. It's okay, your gonna have a wonderful conversation with an Albanian one day about this except he won't be 3000 miles away from you and you'll see what your research and estimates does for him. lol.

And just for the record, let’s get a few more details straight here. First, Arnold “Zeke” Squitieri was the acting boss of the Gambino family at the time, not the boss. A minor detail but it needed correction.

((()))Oh wow. Just wow...

Second, the Rudaj gang didn’t point their guns in the Gambino’s faces and tell them to drop their guns. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered by the Gambinos and so one of the Rudaj guys pointed his shotgun at a gas pump and threatened to blow everyone up if the Gambinos didn’t back off. Squitieri ordered his guys to back off, not because he was afraid of the Rudaj guys, but because he thought they just might be crazy enough to shoot the gas pump. Now what does this show? It showed that the Rudaj guys were willing to hold their ground against the Gambinos.

((()))Although one guy did exactly what you said. You are so pro-Italian that you wont even admit that another Albanian pointed a gun in Squitieri's face and told him to get out off here. The meeting was probably called for reparation for beating up made men.

The Rudaj guys taking over two Greek clubs paying tribute to the LCN showed that they didn’t respect the LCN. But none of this is evidence that the Rudaj gang specifically, or the Albanians in general, or anywhere close to pushing aside La Cosa Nostra.

((()))How so? Although Albanians are not pushing the Italians totally off the bench. Albanians have shown the total most aggression towards pushing aside the Italians in New York then any other group since the days the Irish were battling the Italians. Italian mafia bosses even hire Albanian bodyguards as their own. If the mafia has so much man power, why go to Albanians for muscle?

OK, so you agree that the Italians are more powerful than the Albanians. Try to stick with that opinion and not back peddle two days from now.

((())) No I have never changed my stance on this. You only hear me putting Albanians right where they belong and assume I'm saying Albanians control the world. Why? Because your biased and irregular. My argument is that Albanians are among the top groups in New York City and show the most aggression towards moving aside Italians in New York.

I’ve already explained why the Cubans are more powerful than the Albanians.

((())) You explained your opinion. That doesn't mean that God came down and said it was so. This is the only thing that bothers me about you, besides twisting up my words and answering to your version of my quote, you also think if you say something. It is stated in gold by God. The Cubans are not as significant as Albanians in New York City. The only time I have ever heard of them being of any significane at all is right now when you first mentioned them.

The Colombians are the dominant suppliers of all illegal drugs to the Northeast, including New York. That alone makes them more powerful than the Albanians.

((()))That alone would make them more powerful then Italians as well or are you going to tell us about garment again? Most cocaine cirrculated or brought to New York is not there by Colombians. Rather from people who bought it from the Colombians. There is Colombian presence in New York of course and of significance.

Like most crime groups outside of La Cosa Nostra, including the Albanians, the Chinese operate mainly within their own communities. But the scope and diversification of the Chinese’ operations is much larger than that of the Albanians. And the Chinese, as a group, have been in this country for much longer. Next to La Cosa Nostra, Russian and other Eurasian crime groups are the most significant organized crime investigative priority for the FBI. And they too have been in this country longer as a group than the Albanians. How exactly do the Albanians match them or any of the other groups mentioned above?

((()))Drugs, Arms, Extortion, muscle work, construction... thats how. Need I go on? Must I bring a youtube video in here with a guy who has filled up an entire Boeing full of arms?

In the end, much like JohnnyRed, you simply resort to childish insults because you really don’t have anything else.

I have much to say and most of what I say is accurate, the go fuck yourself was for twisting my words and for being such a biased, ignorant person. Where do you live out of curiousity? Do you actually live in New York or what?

[Faciulina]

albanianunited you're talking about nothing because the albanians are nothing in new york as in usa please be serious man the colombo's have over 100 made members and 1.000 associates the rudaj clan only 30 members and no associates they are just a street gang submitted to the mafia... the italian mafia although is weaker than the past is still by far more powerful than all the other groups imagine if it was powerful like the past... there is no way the albanians will be a more serious threat in the future the police today is stronger than the past the rudaj was destroyed with just 1 indictment the colombo's survived tons of indictments and they are still strong ahahahah the albanians coulnd't survive just 1 indictment they are very weak in usa and they have no any power i bet italian mafia is involved in tons of illicit business you can't only imagine the albanians only in a few... the albanian mafia doesn't exist they have no any mafia they have at least gangs you have no idea what the mafia is although you use this sicilian word... and yes the russians paied/pays tributes to lcn in new york nobody would pay tributes to albanians because although you claim they are violent they looks like little girls compared to italians they never killed nobody in usa the italians killed hundreds of people included kenedy policemen and procuratos in the past show me just a murder committed by this VIOLENT albanians in new york, i mean a murder linked with organizd crime... i know the gambino's guned down an albanian criminal to punish rufaj in the queens i never heard any revenge of the albanian gangs

[AlbaniaUnited]

albanianunited you're talking about nothing because the albanians are nothing in new york as in usa please be serious man the colombo's have over 100 made members and 1.000 associates the rudaj clan only 30 members and no associates they are just a street gang submitted to the mafia... the italian mafia although is weaker than the past is still by far more powerful than all the other groups imagine if it was powerful like the past... there is no way the albanians will be a more serious threat in the future the police today is stronger than the past the rudaj was destroyed with just 1 indictment the colombo's survived tons of indictments and they are still strong ahahahah the albanians coulnd't survive just 1 indictment they are very weak in usa and they have no any power i bet italian mafia is involved in tons of illicit business you can't only imagine the albanians only in a few... the albanian mafia doesn't exist they have no any mafia they have at least gangs you have no idea what the mafia is although you use this sicilian word... and yes the russians paied/pays tributes to lcn in new york nobody would pay tributes to albanians because although you claim they are violent they looks like little girls compared to italians they never killed nobody in usa the italians killed hundreds of people included kenedy policemen and procuratos in the past show me just a murder committed by this VIOLENT albanians in new york, i mean a murder linked with organizd crime... i know the gambino's guned down an albanian criminal to punish rufaj in the queens i never heard any revenge of the albanian gangs

lol So according to you, the entire Albanian mafia was taken down by one indictment. Hahahaha your so stupid. You can't even type properly. Here would be a link about a murder connected to the Albanian Mafia.

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2004/05/ ... levic.html

The murder was extremely brutal. His body was cut into seven pieces. There was no serious attempt to hide the body, perhaps to "send a message."

A 1996 murder of a waiter, Jonathon Segal, and a bouncer, Michael Greco, in New York's Scores restaurant illustrates the indifference and haste with which Albanian assassins kill: two ethnic Albanians employed as Gambino family assassins opened fire on the waiter and bouncer after instigating an argument over quality of service they got in the restaurant.

Okay theres three. Also, for the last time the mafia did not kill John F. Kennedy. JFK had enemies that were and are a lot more powerful then the mafia even during its glory days. Secondly the Gambinos did not kill a member of the Rudaj Organisation. It did not happen. The Italians never killed police men and prosecutors. They have killed one politician that I can think of and I forget his name, but the entire mafia ended up going against the guy who decided to kill him. Police men? too much godfather there Faciulina. I don't know of any incidents involving the murder of police men by Italians. The Rudaj Organisation had over 30 members and a lot more associates. Why do you assume that the Colombos have over 100 made men and ten times the associates but the Rudajs have no associates what so ever? Your very ignorant Faciulina. Im guessing by the way you type that you live in Italy and have almost no knowledge of criminal activities in the United States.

[AlbaniaUnited]

Rao's is a famous mob hangout. It was there last December mobster and Rao's regular Louis (Louie Lump Lump) Barone fatally shot Albert Circelli after Circelli complained about Broadway singer Rena Strober's rendition of "Don't Rain on My Parade."


Just some information abotu this famous mafia restaurant.

[AlbaniaUnited]

Here are some past posts from a few longtime posters on another organized crime forum. These guys were born and raised in New York and were able to give more insight into what exactly happened regarding the Rudaj organization.

Okay so why should we take these guys' word? You say why do I bring Johnny Sack into my argument but you bring random people into yours. This is by far the most most unlogical thing that you have done.

The Albanians were allied and partly controlled by a guy named Lenny from the Bronx. He was with Skinny Phil from Morris Park for years. When Skinny Phil died, Lenny was passed over to another guy in the same crew of the Gambinos who was based in the Arthur Ave section of the Bx. Lenny always had a bunch of Albanians with him. There was an incident, that is well known in the Bronx, where Lenny and a couple of Albanians gave beatings to a couple of made guys from another family. I can't remember their names right now. Anyway, When Lenny goes back to his guy, he gets told "well you want to hit made guys, now you're on your own". He basically gets hung out to dry. Lenny goes and gets his Albanian crew (the Rudaj guys) and decides that they were going to take over everything that this particular crew had. Most of it was in the Bronx, but there was some stuff in Westchester and Queens. This is where the gas station incident comes in. In the end, whether is was a BS story or not, Lenny and the Albanians got to keep their spots. There are a bunch of different theories on why this happened, but the Gambino guys basically got told to go fu-- themselves. The Albanians wound up getting indicted and ultimately convicted. And most of them, including Lenny are serving 20 plus year bids. The funny thing is that the places that were taken are still operating, but are now subject to forfeiture to the Feds, as they were properties that were owned by Rudaj and his guys.

This sounds like it could be very well true. Alex Rudaj started out with Lenny in the Gambino family. When Lenny's mentor Skinny Phil died, Lenny went out on his own. Although the rest of what this man said is debatable. I don't know why you would bring opinions of other posters on here talking about stories they heard.

Frankie Loc had an Albanian guy with him, but he is pretty Americanized. (He's also in the can now too by the way). You're right about there being a lot of Albanians on Belmont, but they pretty much come and go as they please and don't have to stay in any particular area. The Genovese and Lucchese guys both use Albanians as associates if there's a buck to be made. Maybe there was a big distinction before (60s and 70's) but now they are looked on like any other "white guys". That's cause there are a lot of Mexicans and other Central and South Americans on Arthur Ave. There are still a lot of Albanians around, but many of them have moved out into nicer areas. Arthur Avenue was a jumping off point for them and as they started making a few dollars, they moved into nicer areas, just like the Italians did. I have a strong feeling that what went down with the Gambinos was just a question of this particular crew not being liked (they were the old zip guys who were loyal not to the Gotti faction) and the reluctance on the part of the other crews in the family to really go to war with a bunch of 30 something guys with absolutely nothing to lose. Remember, most of the made guys are older guys who are already very wealthy. Does a 60 or 70 somthing guy with a couple of million dollars in property and legit businesses want to start shooting it out with a bunch of crazy Albanians? Sure there are still some tough guys, and some legit shooters, but it doesn't make sense to start something like the Wild West over a couple of coffee shops and joker poker machines.
Just my take. BTW---I grew up on Arthur Avenue and 187th during the 70's and 80's

Okay so according to him, he thinks that the Albanians took over clubs and beat up made men belonging to a Gambino crew that wasent very liked in the family. Thats why the family didn't react. Even though the boss of the Gambinos met Alex Rudaj at a gas station.

The Luchese didn't get punked nor did the Gambino's. Nothing happened with the table at raio's. Nardino Coletti wanted to not only get made but that over as capo for the skinny guy. He waged war on the old time zip crew of the Gambino's in morris park. They were relatives of Castellano from the other side and multi millionaires. Gotti regime decided to leave them out to dry because of that. So, he pushed them into retirement. There was Bonanno and Genovese clubs up and down the avenue and not one got touched. The Bonanno's would have destroyed that crew and Nardino would walk on the other side of the street past a Genovese club. The reason the other families didn't intervene was because the boss of the family left them on their own. Secondly, the Luchese have more killers than any other family and never would have been punked down by that crew. Nardino was an earner with MEGA BALLS though. THat crew was mixed with Italians and Albanians.

Okay so heres another opinion of a guy who thinks he's inside the mafia. How would he know mafia clubs up and down the avenue and whether or not the Rudajs touched them? Again, bad idea to bring these other posters into this forum.

The Luchese's did nothing about their associate being pistol whipped because the whole scene was too hot. That Gambling then was raided shortly afterwards by LE. The Albanians by that time...where be heavly investigated by both the FBI and LE..... The walls were closing in on the Albanians. LCN knew it. Well at least the Lucheses knew it. It still baffles me that Zeke went and confronted these guys at a gas station. THis also leads me to believe that the Gambino might have been splintered into groups at this time. Was Zeke really the Street Boss for the whole family?? We only have this information from the mouth of Greg Depalma via Jack Falcone. It's very possible that the Brooklyn faction of the Gambino's had their own leadership that was running it's own faction. I have read several Law Enorcement Crime reports that state the Gambino Family has been running in Factions and groups instead of one strong leadership like when Gotti was on the street. Stronger evidence of this is the very fact that Zeke the supposed street boss would meet face to face with an opposing OC crime. At this time there were at least 80-90 street soldiers on the street and could have handled the situation had Zeke really had the powerbase that he supposedly had. Remember the Jack Falcone indictment only included the CT faction and DePalma's crew ...as well as Zeke and Sisca. That is not allot of info to go on when looking into the family as a whole.

This guy sounds like you. Telling us the LCN knew that the Albanians were going to get indicted and got out of there to avoid heat on themselves. He also states that he believes without any source that Arnold Squitieri was not really the boss. These guys are just a bunch of Johnny's. Some of them are reasonable like the first guy but not these last two.

picasso backed me in the past on this. The gambino's in bronx were relatives of paul and carlo so the gotti's left them out to dry and lenny and rudaj knew it. When they seen a Bonnano or Genovese club they crossed the street. Also, the raio's story was a joke. The Luchese's would have destroyed them. they have more killers and cowboys than anyother family. Bottom line is they took advatange of some old time zips who were left to die. Guys who earned more in a year than gotti earned in his lifetime.

So this guy knows that the Rao's story was a joke. Rao's is a famous mob hangout and John Gotti's table is said to have never been touched since he went to jail. But this is a joke of course because some guys cannot handle the fact that Albanians went against Italian crime families. And according to this guy, the Albanians took advantage of some old time 'zips'. I guess they took advantage of the entire Gambinos then because pointing a gun in Gambino bosses face isn't a joke. Or would that be a joke also?

That's true....the guys that were on the losing end were Joe Gambino, his nephew Sal and the Mascia's....there were other GAMBINO joints right across the street from there (crews of Vinnie Artuso and Tore) and they were not touched, never mind Genovese and Bonanno joints. This all stemmed from Lenny feeling like he was hung out to dry by Joe over an incident where Lenny had #%@& up. Joe inherited Lenny ( who was a smart and ballsy guy in his own right) from Skinny Phil when he died and felt like he got #%@& over by his superiors and decided to take matters into his own hands. Oddly enough, from what I know, the government moved for forfeiture of all their assets and they wound up not only in the can but pretty hurt from losing all the property they had amassed.

So now I know where your lingo and theories come from. You get it from no where. I am very disapointed 'thewestside' and I wish that everybody on this forum would realize by this post that 'thewestside' posted that shows he is not as reliable as some people on this forum think he is. Your information comes from these guys? I thought you actually followed up on the Rudajs and read numerous reports on them. I didn't know you were listening to "I think what happened" stories from guys in New York.

[thewestside]

Capeci is highly involved in investigating and researching La Cosa Nostra in the United States. His research and estimates derives from extensive work in the matter. You only google La Cosa Nostra and find a couple of estimates and give us a number in between. This is why I am going to stick to my estimate originationg from Capeci's estimate that the Colombo Family only has 75-85 members. I don't wish to bolster my claim that the Rudaj Organisation almost equaled the Colombo family. The Rudaj Organisation only had 30-35 members. The Colombos have 75-85. So that's 40-50 more members.

Quit pretending you have any idea about the method by which Capeci gets his estimates. I've kept track of the estimates of the size of the LCN families in New York, as well as elsewhere, for years. Law enforcement press releases, government reports, indictments, media articles, etc. I gave you one official source from the New Jersey State Commission that cited 112 members for the Colombos in 2004. If that had been just a guess, they wouldn't have had a number like 112. The number would have been in 10 or 5 incriments like 115 or 110. The fact that they had 112 members shows they had that many names as confirmed members that year. That alone, to say nothing of all the other official estimates, demonstrates that Capeci's estimate of 75-85 is low. But here is more proof. A list of 96 confirmed Colombo members.

Boss: Carmine "Junior" Persico (IP)
Acting Boss: Thomas "Tommy Shots" Gieoli (UI)
UnderBoss: John "Sonny" Franzese (IP)
Consigliere: Joel "Waverly" Cacace (IP)

Captains:

1. Joseph Baudanza (IP)
2. Dino Calabro (UI)
3. Benjamin Castellazzo
4. Michael Catapano (IP)
5. James “Jimmy Green Eyes” Clamenza
6. Luca DiMatteo
7. Paul “Paulie Guns” Bevacqua
8. Ralph Lombardo
9. Andrew "Andy Mush" Russo
10. Michael Uvino (UI)

Soldiers:

1. Benedetto "Benny" Aloi (IP)
2. Vincent "Vinny" Aloi
3. Pasquale Amato (IP)
4. Joseph Carna
5. Robert “Bobby Bibbs” Cassamassino
6. Vincent Cascio
7. Aurelio “Ray” Cagno (IP)
8. Dominick Cataldo
9. Salvatore “Sally Bread” Cambria
10. John Cammarato
11. Frank “Campy” Campanella (UI)
12. Joseph “Joey Caves” Compatiello (IP)
13. Frank “Frankie Camp” Campione (IP)
14. Richard “The Jewler” Capichano
15. Alphonse Cirillo
16. Gerard “Jerry Green Eyes” Clamenza
17. Anthony Colombo (IP)
18. Joseph Colombo Jr (UI)
19. Jerome D’Agati
20. Leonard Dello
21. Dennis DeLucia
22. Vincent “Chickie” DeMartino (IP)
23. John "Jackie" DeRoss (IP)
24. Robert “Rob” Donofrio
25. Robert Falvo
26. Edward Fanelli
27. Thomas Farese
28. Richard “Ritchie Nerves” Fusco
29. Salvatore Fusco
30. Joseph Gorgone
31. Vincent Gugliaro
32. Joseph Iannaci
33. Anthony Induisi
34. Salvatore Lombardino (IP)
35. Gennaro "Gerry Lang" Langella (IP)
36. Joseph LaRosa
37. Joseph “Joe Legs” Legrano (IP)
38. Angelo Leto (IP)
39. Frank “Chickie” Leto (IP)
40. Benjamin Locicero
41. Frank Locicero
42. Joseph Lupo
43. James Malpeso
44. Anthony Maltese
45. Salvatore Mangiamelli
46. Reynolds Maragni
47. Craig Marino (IP)
48. Joseph “Joe Monte” Monteleone (IP)
49. Dominic "Donny Shacks" Montemarano
50. Victor Orena Jr
51. John Orena
52. Victor “Little Vic” Orena (IP)
53. Junior Palermo
54. Pasquale “Patsy” Palermo
55. Charles “Charlie Moose” Panarella (UI)
56. Thomas Petrizzo
57. Alphonse "Little Allie Boy" Persico (IP)
58. Daniel “Danny” Persico
59. Theodore “Teddy” Persico Jr
60. Theodore “Teddy” Persico Sr (IP)
61. Salvatore “Sally Pro” Profaci
62. Vincent "Vinny Unions" Ricciardo (IP)
63. John Rossatti
64. Anthony "Chucky" Russo (IP)
65. William “Billy” Russo
66. James Scianna
67. Anthony Scianni
68. John Scimone
69. Greg Scarpa Jr (IP)
70. Ralph Scopo Jr (UI)
71. Larry Sessa
72. Michael Sessa (IP)
73. Michael “Mikey” Souza (UI)
74. Nicoline Sorrentino
75. Frank Sparaco (IP)
76. Gus “Buddy” Spatafora
77. John Staluppi
78. Anthony Stropoli
79. Joseph "Joe T" Tomasello
80. Joseph “Joe” Tolino
81. Robert Zambardi (IP)
82. Joseph Zorzi

I never said they matched the Colombo Family. I said they almost amount the Colombos in numbers. They only amount to half the Colombos in numbers and less then half in total power. Although manpower would be up for debate. Clean out your ears mister.

First you said that you rated the Rudaj gang as a "sixth family," bringing up Capeci's low estimate of the Colombo family to support your case. Of course, like many thing, you then backtracked and said they weren't. Look at your comment above. You can't even make up your mind. You said the Rudaj gang almost amounted to the Colombos in numbers. And in the very next sentence you say they only amounted to half the Colombos. Which is it? And how is manpower up for debate? The Colombos are estimated to have 300-500 associates. So even if you went with the low figure of 75 members (even though they have more) and the lowest associate estimate of 300, you are looking at the Colombos having a manpower of 375 people. The Rudaj gang had no more than a few dozen.

Not some, but 50 gambling spots through-out New York. You speak of the leaders purchasing $5.8 million worth of properties as if it is all the money they had. Obviously if they spent that much money on just properties they would have more.

Exactly which source do you get that the Rudaj gang had 50 gambling spots? Please provide it. The FBI said they had 50+ video poker machines. Not 50 gambling spots like clubs, etc.

And just who stated that they are more powerful? You? Sophistication is but one factor of power

Why are you being wilfully ignorant? You know, as well as I do, that the authorities consider Russian crime groups to be more powerful than Albanian groups in the U.S.

Whats your point here? No I don't remember your restaurant analogy. The Albanians would walk in there and tell them straight, pay or be ruined. The Russians will go in there and light a picture of their business on fire in front of them and walk out. Either way both the Albanians and Russians are capable of extorting the bussiness. The Italians might be able to easier but its not the way you do it its what you do.

I gave you a perfect example of the difference in sophistication and power between the LCN and other groups. But allow me to break it down even more. New York citizens have to pay higher prices in any number of industries, from garbage hauling, trucking, construction, wholesale food, and so on because of the mob tax built into these industries. Compare this to some Russian or Albanian gangsters shaking down some ethnic business owner in their communities. If you can't see the distinction then you are really clueless.

And just what was I hearing? I told you that the Albanians were stated alongside the Chinese and Russians. So how does that qualify as hearing what I want to hear? What did you hear? I heard the Albanians being mentioned and thats what I stated. Did I lie? Or is this another way you turn the argument into shit. Can I name an Albanian stupid enough to attract as much heat to himself as Rudaj did? No. do I want to? No. Rudaj did nothing special. He had a very typical Albanian mentality. Not caring about who you are just doing what he wanted. He was the first non-Italian to stick a gun in a La Cosa Nostra boss' face. Not to mention to took over a club paying tribute to the same boss and also sat in the seat of former Gambino boss John Gotti in Rao's. Man, he really had it out for the Gambinos to spit at them that many times. lol. Also, why would I need to give you another example? Isn't Alex Rudaj an example? Did he not take over a club paying the LCN for operating there. That would be considered by force. You see how worked up you get just because I said "sometimes not even waiting for the Italians to lose ground but taking it by force". Why don't you just admit your Italian?

You claimed that the CNN video said the Albanians were among the most powerful in New York. It did not. So yes, you did lie. I'm not arguing what the Rudaj gang did. I'm saying that what they did in no way is a sign of a turningpoint in American organized crime, which is what you and other Albanian posters like to believe.

I do research on almost every group with significant presence in the United States. But I can't do research about an organisation I never heard about. Most of the Cuban Corporations operationg are in Florida, I know that much about them. The Rudaj Organisation was based and was limited in New York. Why must you compare the two? I'll answer that. Because you will say anything to downsize the Albanians.

If you have done even a minimal amount of research of other crime groups in the U.S., you would have likely heard of the Cuban Corporation. And, for the record, the Corporation's operations are primarily in New York and New Jersey, with Florida coming afterwards. I'm comparing the two because the original basis of this arguement was the relative power of these crime groups. Or did you forget that?

Correction you have the same problem Johnny does. You hate Albanians like Johnny hates Italians. Both of you are biased because of it. You downsize Albanians and Johnny downsizes Italians. You do not care about the facts, nor you or Johnny. More evidence if there. Research it yourself. Albanian organised crime in the United States. Google it. Much information comes up. If you cared to enhance your research a little you would know. You don't even know of Daut Kadriovki who is operating in the United States as we speak. I bet you never even heard of him. He works through-out New York and Philadelphia. But of course because your ignorant that means Alex Rudaj must be the top Albanian gangster in America. There are Albanian gangsters in even Canada that put Rudaj to shame.

Give me a break. I hate Albanians simply because I have had to correct you about them? This is why you, JohnnyRed, and other Albanian posters are all the same. You are all insecure and think that anyone who doesn't agree with you must hate Albanians. JohnnyRed was pegged as a biased fool by most of the posters on this forum and now you have as well. Daut Kadriovski is another single Albanian drug trafficker, like Lika. You obviously do the same Google searches JohnnyRed has done to try and scour the internet for any mention of Albanian gangsters in the U.S. What Albanian gangsters in Canada put Rudaj to shame?

You said you hate how everyone says that Rudaj was the most powerful Albanian mobster in New York, thereby insinuating there are more powerful Albanian mobsters. Who? The Rudaj gang is now defunct. Lika is a single drug trafficker from the past. Zef Mustafa is also a single Albanian criminal but, like many Albanians, he works for the LCN. YACS are burglary rings, typical of much of Albanian organized crime at this point. Anton Spaci was an enforcer that worked for both the LCN and Albanian groups.

Ismail Lika was not a single drug trafficker. He has members in his own 'organisation'. No estimation has been given but he had his own crew most of which were Albanian. He was not a single drug trafficker. Zef Mustafa worked with the LCN not for. Anton Spaci was of no signficance, he was just a name that poped in my head while I was writing.

Good grief, will you do some actual research instead of talking out of your ass? Zef Mustafa started out as a driver for former Gambino underboss Frank Locascio. He is a longtime associate in the Locascio crew, now run by Frank's son Salvatore. He works for the Gambino family.

You honestly believe that Alex Rudaj was the most powerful Albanian gangster? He is the most famour I'll give him that. Because of his media worth ways of conducting business. But by no means was the biggest Albanian gangster in the United States. What about the Albanian drug circles? Are you forgetting about that. Albanian have gained the most noriety for drug trafficking. Not gambling like Rudaj. But as I continue to say repeatedly. You will not hear of Albanian organisation getting indicted like Rudaj. They do not operate in that way. There is way too many Albanian gangsters here in New York for Alex Rudaj to be crowned the top. I personally have witnessed Albanian organised crime right here in New York. Friends of my cousins shot a waiter dead for the level of service provide to them. Right here in the Bronx an Albanian ran a guy over because he insulted him inside a cafe, gun fights right in the stores. A few years ago an Albanian got shot right in the head two times before leaving his car here in the Bronx. There is no possible way that Alex Rudaj can be the top gangster. Kadriovski alone is evidence enough to prove that Rudaj takes a back seat to someone. Albanian gangsters are not on display on the internet like the Italians are. The only way Kadriovski is even mentioned is because of his profile in Europe as one of the top heroin traffickers. You can't google 'Albanian gangsters' and comes a list of names in the Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhatten, Staten Island. With the Italians you can because many people have a fascination with them due to the past (Al Capone, Salvatore Lucania, John Gotti). Concluding my statement, why do you consistently keep asking me to mention Albanians bigger then Rudaj? You must honestly think he is the most powerful, if thats the case. Your ignorant.

Albanians have not gained the most notoriety for drug trafficking in the U.S. Europe, yes, but not in America. In the U.S. Albanian gangsters are most known for illegal gambling and burglary operations.

50 Gambling spots not just several. Several dozens.

I've already given you the source that said the FBI estimated the Rudaj gang had 50+ video poker machines.
http://www.fbi.gov/page2/march06/albanian032906.htm

Once again, provide your source that has said they had 50 gambling spots.

Lmao, okay so your asking me why didn't they target Genovese clubs instead of Gambino and Lucchese clubs? That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They beat up made men, what more do you want? Even if they didn't take over a club directly controlled by the LCN, they beat down made members of the mafia. Thats even worse.

What made members did they beat up? They assaulted some Greeks in Queens and reportedly shot a low level Bonanno associate. Whether in the indictment or elsewhere, there has never been any mention of a single made member being beat up by the Rudaj guys.

See now your talking, at least you have the decency to talk rationally now. I do not hype up Albanian organise crime. I defend it when ignorant people on the matter downsize them. I just feel I should put them in their place. Rudaj built an entire building in Shkoder, Albania. As well through-out the same city. He also has a restaurant in Montenegro right on the beach. How do I know this you might ask after you call me a bullshitter? Because I know people that were very close to Rudaj and I personally seen his building which has his last name on it.

Yes, Rudaj and other leaders of the gang had money to invest in property. That is well known. So? The gang's interests, both legal and illegal, basically amounted to that of a single LCN crew. Not an entire family.

It probably was you. You come on here lying about not being Italian, why wouldn't you do the same about editing wikipedia? You rely on wikipedia for many of your statements. 113,000 Albanians in America is also found on wikipedia. lol. Wikipedia is not a reliable source 'thewestside' so stop using it and for god's sake please dont go to the extreme measures of editing it yourself to further your argument.

I'll say this one more time. I am not Italian. I have never edited Wikipedia. You want to believe this because you feel it helps your case. But everyone here knows that you are the one who is biased because you are Albanian. You are JohnnyRed all over again.

LOOL all you do is get on people's nerves 'thewestside'. JohnnyRed could have been a saint before talking to you. You never know. First your talking about organised crime in New York then you wonder off and talk about Albanian posters. It's you who is biased and consistently hyping the Italians. The Italians control this and do that, are involved in this and do that. The Italians are inovled in alot, yes. What your forgetting to mention is that the Italians are weakening severely by the year. Eighty member just this year alone. In ten years the La Cosa Nostra will no longer be the most serious threat to New York City. This is what you don't say, instead you hype them up by saying oh no no no, the Italians are still involved in garment, haahahahah, the Italians have no where near the influence they did in any of the industries they are still involved in today. Or the unions for that matter. And I have a very hard time believing that Russians pay a tax to the Italians in New York. I will be needing proof for that by you 'theeastside'.

You're talking out of your ass again. I talk about many crime groups, not just the Italians. Like JohnnyRed, you speak primarily about the Albanians. Yes, La Cosa Nostra is in decline. But it's a very slow decline, especially in New York. There have been many predictions over the years of the Mafia's demise, only to be shown to be premature. Both law enforcement authorities and some media outlets have become much more careful about declaring the end of the mob in New York. Yes, they are no longer as powerful as they once were. But they are still significantly more powerful than any other group. They still control labor unions and have influence in various legitimate industries. 750 of the remaining 1,100 members of the LCN in the U.S. belong to the five New York families. That's about 70%. The only thing that will see the end of the five New York families is general attrition. Repeated indictments, rats, etc. chip away at the organizations but they don't see the end of them.

In 2003, PMC International, a police consulting agency, described how the Russian mob still has to give the LCN a cut of it's activities in the New York/New Jersey area.
http://www.providencephoenix.com/featur ... 288673.asp

Its a census. 113,000 people claimed Albanian ancestry. How would they claim it? How would they know? Go door to door? I guess the Albanian-American civic league means nothing to you. They could personally ask the city of New York for a estimate of Albanian residents residing in New York for their organisation as well as can the U.S. Census but the Albanian-American civic league would actually go into it. The U.S. Census had to established the population of every ethnic group and probably did not go into it as well as the AAL would have. The Albanian population in America is 550,000-750,000. Just leave it there 'theeastside'. This is proof that you wish to downsize every aspect of Albanian life, criminal or not. Then you say your not biased. If you werent biased you wouldn't care and shrug off the number even if it was a lie which it is most certainly not.

Frankly, I don't really care what the Albanian population is in the U.S. But I do care that I have to constantly correct your hyping the Albanians. And this is probably another case. But even if you are correct, and there are 550,000-750,000 Albanians in the U.S., they still don't match the population of the other ethnic groups in question. And that was the original point made.

Remember Jerry Capeci, the foremost expert on the American Mafia? Here are some key excerpts from a 2006 interview -

Has the Russian mob eclipsed the Italian?

No. And like all other emerging ethnic organized-crime networks, it never will. Not because Italian-American gangsters are any smarter or more ruthless than the others, but because the law enforcement community has learned important lessons from its prior years of abject failure in curtailing the Mafia. For nearly 20 years now, the F.B.I. and other investigative agencies have recruited members of emerging ethnic groups to combat the organized-crime elements in their midst. In the 1980's, for example, the F.B.I. — unlike J. Edgar Hoover, who essentially ignored the Mafia and viewed Italian-American applicants with distrust — began recruiting Chinese- and Russian-speaking agents to deal with emerging organized-crime influence in those communities.

Who are the newest kids on the mob block?

Albanian gangsters are the latest ethnic criminals to be presented by authorities as competition for the old and dying Mafiosi. Like Irish, Cuban, Russian, Chinese and Greek hoodlums before them, the Albanians are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob. There are nowhere near enough of them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weeki ... wanted=all

I don't know about that. You say that with no research in the matter. If you were not ignorant and spoke with reason you would say no Albanian group has been made public to be bigger then any LCN crime family in New York City. But instead you say what you say. It's okay, your gonna have a wonderful conversation with an Albanian one day about this except he won't be 3000 miles away from you and you'll see what your research and estimates does for him. lol.

I've researched just about everything surrounding the Rudaj gang. You're the one who enters arguments without all the facts and talking out of your ass.

And just for the record, let’s get a few more details straight here. First, Arnold “Zeke” Squitieri was the acting boss of the Gambino family at the time, not the boss. A minor detail but it needed correction.

Although one guy did exactly what you said. You are so pro-Italian that you wont even admit that another Albanian pointed a gun in Squitieri's face and told him to get out off here. The meeting was probably called for reparation for beating up made men.

It's obvious why the meeting was called. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered. Even if they had pointed guns in the Gambino's faces, they would have had more guns pointed back at them. They got the Gambinos to back off by threatening to blow up the gas pump. But regardless of this, the underlying point is the same. This in no way amounted to a turningpoint in American organized crime.

How so? Although Albanians are not pushing the Italians totally off the bench. Albanians have shown the total most aggression towards pushing aside the Italians in New York then any other group since the days the Irish were battling the Italians. Italian mafia bosses even hire Albanian bodyguards as their own. If the mafia has so much man power, why go to Albanians for muscle?

There is a single example of an Albanian gang taking on the LCN - the Rudaj gang. But you talk as if it's a continuing trend. The LCN has always used other ethnic groups for low level enforcement work as killers, enforcers, debt collectors, etc. The Albanians are no different.

No I have never changed my stance on this. You only hear me putting Albanians right where they belong and assume I'm saying Albanians control the world. Why? Because your biased and irregular. My argument is that Albanians are among the top groups in New York City and show the most aggression towards moving aside Italians in New York.

There is evidence that the Albanians are among the top groups in New York if you're talking about top ten. But the evidence also shows they are at least behind the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Colombians, and Cubans.

You explained your opinion. That doesn't mean that God came down and said it was so. This is the only thing that bothers me about you, besides twisting up my words and answering to your version of my quote, you also think if you say something. It is stated in gold by God. The Cubans are not as significant as Albanians in New York City. The only time I have ever heard of them being of any significane at all is right now when you first mentioned them.

You haven't heard of them because you haven't done much research on crime groups outside of the Albanians. Just like JohnnRed. You argue all your points from a postion of ignorance. What I have said about the Cubans are based on research and fact. I gave you a few sources where could research them yourself. But you won't because you aren't interested in the facts. You are only intersted in believing in whatever says the Albanians are superior than a given group.

That alone would make them more powerful then Italians as well or are you going to tell us about garment again? Most cocaine cirrculated or brought to New York is not there by Colombians. Rather from people who bought it from the Colombians. There is Colombian presence in New York of course and of significance.

The Italians are still considered the most powerful by law enforcement because of their power and influence over labor unions and legitimate industries in New York. All this in addition to their illicit operations in illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion, drug trafficking, etc. The Albanians don't have this, which is why the Colombians are considered more powerful Read the latest threat assessement from the DEA I've posted numerous times. The Colombians are the main suppliers to the Northeast, including New York, and the Dominicans are the main wholesale distributors.

Drugs, Arms, Extortion, muscle work, construction... thats how. Need I go on? Must I bring a youtube video in here with a guy who has filled up an entire Boeing full of arms?

YouTube? You really are grasping at straws here. Yes, Albanian groups are involved in all of those things. That doesn't mean they are more powerful than Russian or other groups.

I have much to say and most of what I say is accurate, the go fu-- yourself was for twisting my words and for being such a biased, ignorant person. Where do you live out of curiousity? Do you actually live in New York or what?

Call me ignorant and biased all you want. I think it's obvious to most people here who is really ignorant and biased. We've seen it all before with JohnnyRed. You are simply JohnnyRed #2. I don't twist your words, I simply point out that you often talk out of your ass.

For the record, I live in the western U.S.

[thewestside]

albanianunited you're talking about nothing because the albanians are nothing in new york as in usa please be serious man the colombo's have over 100 made members and 1.000 associates the rudaj clan only 30 members and no associates they are just a street gang submitted to the mafia... the italian mafia although is weaker than the past is still by far more powerful than all the other groups imagine if it was powerful like the past... there is no way the albanians will be a more serious threat in the future the police today is stronger than the past the rudaj was destroyed with just 1 indictment the colombo's survived tons of indictments and they are still strong ahahahah the albanians coulnd't survive just 1 indictment they are very weak in usa and they have no any power i bet italian mafia is involved in tons of illicit business you can't only imagine the albanians only in a few... the albanian mafia doesn't exist they have no any mafia they have at least gangs you have no idea what the mafia is although you use this sicilian word... and yes the russians paied/pays tributes to lcn in new york nobody would pay tributes to albanians because although you claim they are violent they looks like little girls compared to italians they never killed nobody in usa the italians killed hundreds of people included kenedy policemen and procuratos in the past show me just a murder committed by this VIOLENT albanians in new york, i mean a murder linked with organizd crime... i know the gambino's guned down an albanian criminal to punish rufaj in the queens i never heard any revenge of the albanian gangs

The highest estimates for the Colombo family is 500 associates. Not 1,000.

lol So according to you, the entire Albanian mafia was taken down by one indictment. Hahahaha your so stupid. You can't even type properly. Here would be a link about a murder connected to the Albanian Mafia.

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2004/05/ ... levic.html

The murder was extremely brutal. His body was cut into seven pieces. There was no serious attempt to hide the body, perhaps to "send a message."

A 1996 murder of a waiter, Jonathon Segal, and a bouncer, Michael Greco, in New York's Scores restaurant illustrates the indifference and haste with which Albanian assassins kill: two ethnic Albanians employed as Gambino family assassins opened fire on the waiter and bouncer after instigating an argument over quality of service they got in the restaurant.

Okay theres three. Also, for the last time the mafia did not kill John F. Kennedy. JFK had enemies that were and are a lot more powerful then the mafia even during its glory days. Secondly the Gambinos did not kill a member of the Rudaj Organisation. It did not happen. The Italians never killed police men and prosecutors. They have killed one politician that I can think of and I forget his name, but the entire mafia ended up going against the guy who decided to kill him. Police men? too much godfather there Faciulina. I don't know of any incidents involving the murder of police men by Italians. The Rudaj Organisation had over 30 members and a lot more associates. Why do you assume that the Colombos have over 100 made men and ten times the associates but the Rudajs have no associates what so ever? Your very ignorant Faciulina. Im guessing by the way you type that you live in Italy and have almost no knowledge of criminal activities in the United States.

You're talking out of your ass again. The Rudaj gang didn't have "associates" like the LCN does, as opposed to made members who are formally inducted. They simply had members of the gang. A few dozen at most.

[Faciulina]

yeah three murders ahahaha one is not sure being committed by albanians and the other two are supposed being committed by albanian shooters sent by gambino's so that's technically it's a mafia hit not albanian... albanians are nothing when it comes to mafia wars they have not mafia but just gangs and a paramilitary group (uck) they are accustomed fight in a different way than mafia... yes an albanian was killed by gambino's in queens i don't find the link if i find i'll put... the italian mafia in usa killed policemen in the past they killed the police chief in new orleans and others they were involved in kennedy murder and they killed even a few judges and thousands of mafia members in the years (1.000 in chicago only) if you don't believe in me check this instead to check inesistent albanian murders, plus in usa there is not only italo-american mafia but italian syndicates there are over 3.000 sicilian born members according to fbi outside the local families and sorry but the albanians are only a few crews and the most important (rudaj crew) is not exist anymore, the albanian gangs are not the mafia they have not the longetivity of the mafia

[thewestside]

Here are some past posts from a few longtime posters on another organized crime forum. These guys were born and raised in New York and were able to give more insight into what exactly happened regarding the Rudaj organization.

Okay so why should we take these guys' word? You say why do I bring Johnny Sack into my argument but you bring random people into yours. This is by far the most most unlogical thing that you have done.

The Albanians were allied and partly controlled by a guy named Lenny from the Bronx. He was with Skinny Phil from Morris Park for years. When Skinny Phil died, Lenny was passed over to another guy in the same crew of the Gambinos who was based in the Arthur Ave section of the Bx. Lenny always had a bunch of Albanians with him. There was an incident, that is well known in the Bronx, where Lenny and a couple of Albanians gave beatings to a couple of made guys from another family. I can't remember their names right now. Anyway, When Lenny goes back to his guy, he gets told "well you want to hit made guys, now you're on your own". He basically gets hung out to dry. Lenny goes and gets his Albanian crew (the Rudaj guys) and decides that they were going to take over everything that this particular crew had. Most of it was in the Bronx, but there was some stuff in Westchester and Queens. This is where the gas station incident comes in. In the end, whether is was a BS story or not, Lenny and the Albanians got to keep their spots. There are a bunch of different theories on why this happened, but the Gambino guys basically got told to go fu-- themselves. The Albanians wound up getting indicted and ultimately convicted. And most of them, including Lenny are serving 20 plus year bids. The funny thing is that the places that were taken are still operating, but are now subject to forfeiture to the Feds, as they were properties that were owned by Rudaj and his guys.

This sounds like it could be very well true. Alex Rudaj started out with Lenny in the Gambino family. When Lenny's mentor Skinny Phil died, Lenny went out on his own. Although the rest of what this man said is debatable. I don't know why you would bring opinions of other posters on here talking about stories they heard.

Frankie Loc had an Albanian guy with him, but he is pretty Americanized. (He's also in the can now too by the way). You're right about there being a lot of Albanians on Belmont, but they pretty much come and go as they please and don't have to stay in any particular area. The Genovese and Lucchese guys both use Albanians as associates if there's a buck to be made. Maybe there was a big distinction before (60s and 70's) but now they are looked on like any other "white guys". That's cause there are a lot of Mexicans and other Central and South Americans on Arthur Ave. There are still a lot of Albanians around, but many of them have moved out into nicer areas. Arthur Avenue was a jumping off point for them and as they started making a few dollars, they moved into nicer areas, just like the Italians did. I have a strong feeling that what went down with the Gambinos was just a question of this particular crew not being liked (they were the old zip guys who were loyal not to the Gotti faction) and the reluctance on the part of the other crews in the family to really go to war with a bunch of 30 something guys with absolutely nothing to lose. Remember, most of the made guys are older guys who are already very wealthy. Does a 60 or 70 somthing guy with a couple of million dollars in property and legit businesses want to start shooting it out with a bunch of crazy Albanians? Sure there are still some tough guys, and some legit shooters, but it doesn't make sense to start something like the Wild West over a couple of coffee shops and joker poker machines.
Just my take. BTW---I grew up on Arthur Avenue and 187th during the 70's and 80's

Okay so according to him, he thinks that the Albanians took over clubs and beat up made men belonging to a Gambino crew that wasent very liked in the family. Thats why the family didn't react. Even though the boss of the Gambinos met Alex Rudaj at a gas station.

The Luchese didn't get punked nor did the Gambino's. Nothing happened with the table at raio's. Nardino Coletti wanted to not only get made but that over as capo for the skinny guy. He waged war on the old time zip crew of the Gambino's in morris park. They were relatives of Castellano from the other side and multi millionaires. Gotti regime decided to leave them out to dry because of that. So, he pushed them into retirement. There was Bonanno and Genovese clubs up and down the avenue and not one got touched. The Bonanno's would have destroyed that crew and Nardino would walk on the other side of the street past a Genovese club. The reason the other families didn't intervene was because the boss of the family left them on their own. Secondly, the Luchese have more killers than any other family and never would have been punked down by that crew. Nardino was an earner with MEGA BALLS though. THat crew was mixed with Italians and Albanians.

Okay so heres another opinion of a guy who thinks he's inside the mafia. How would he know mafia clubs up and down the avenue and whether or not the Rudajs touched them? Again, bad idea to bring these other posters into this forum.

The Luchese's did nothing about their associate being pistol whipped because the whole scene was too hot. That Gambling then was raided shortly afterwards by LE. The Albanians by that time...where be heavly investigated by both the FBI and LE..... The walls were closing in on the Albanians. LCN knew it. Well at least the Lucheses knew it. It still baffles me that Zeke went and confronted these guys at a gas station. THis also leads me to believe that the Gambino might have been splintered into groups at this time. Was Zeke really the Street Boss for the whole family?? We only have this information from the mouth of Greg Depalma via Jack Falcone. It's very possible that the Brooklyn faction of the Gambino's had their own leadership that was running it's own faction. I have read several Law Enorcement Crime reports that state the Gambino Family has been running in Factions and groups instead of one strong leadership like when Gotti was on the street. Stronger evidence of this is the very fact that Zeke the supposed street boss would meet face to face with an opposing OC crime. At this time there were at least 80-90 street soldiers on the street and could have handled the situation had Zeke really had the powerbase that he supposedly had. Remember the Jack Falcone indictment only included the CT faction and DePalma's crew ...as well as Zeke and Sisca. That is not allot of info to go on when looking into the family as a whole.

This guy sounds like you. Telling us the LCN knew that the Albanians were going to get indicted and got out of there to avoid heat on themselves. He also states that he believes without any source that Arnold Squitieri was not really the boss. These guys are just a bunch of Johnny's. Some of them are reasonable like the first guy but not these last two.

picasso backed me in the past on this. The gambino's in bronx were relatives of paul and carlo so the gotti's left them out to dry and lenny and rudaj knew it. When they seen a Bonnano or Genovese club they crossed the street. Also, the raio's story was a joke. The Luchese's would have destroyed them. they have more killers and cowboys than anyother family. Bottom line is they took advatange of some old time zips who were left to die. Guys who earned more in a year than gotti earned in his lifetime.

So this guy knows that the Rao's story was a joke. Rao's is a famous mob hangout and John Gotti's table is said to have never been touched since he went to jail. But this is a joke of course because some guys cannot handle the fact that Albanians went against Italian crime families. And according to this guy, the Albanians took advantage of some old time 'zips'. I guess they took advantage of the entire Gambinos then because pointing a gun in Gambino bosses face isn't a joke. Or would that be a joke also?

That's true....the guys that were on the losing end were Joe Gambino, his nephew Sal and the Mascia's....there were other GAMBINO joints right across the street from there (crews of Vinnie Artuso and Tore) and they were not touched, never mind Genovese and Bonanno joints. This all stemmed from Lenny feeling like he was hung out to dry by Joe over an incident where Lenny had #%@& up. Joe inherited Lenny ( who was a smart and ballsy guy in his own right) from Skinny Phil when he died and felt like he got #%@& over by his superiors and decided to take matters into his own hands. Oddly enough, from what I know, the government moved for forfeiture of all their assets and they wound up not only in the can but pretty hurt from losing all the property they had amassed.

So now I know where your lingo and theories come from. You get it from no where. I am very disapointed 'thewestside' and I wish that everybody on this forum would realize by this post that 'thewestside' posted that shows he is not as reliable as some people on this forum think he is. Your information comes from these guys? I thought you actually followed up on the Rudajs and read numerous reports on them. I didn't know you were listening to "I think what happened" stories from guys in New York.

I posted the opinions of some guys who live in the New York area and have some insight into the matter. You yourself have claimed special knowledge by saying you know people who know about this matter. How are the guys above any different? If anything, they know more than any of your personal sources.

[thewestside]

yeah three murders ahahaha one is not sure being committed by albanians and the other two are supposed being committed by albanian shooters sent by gambino's so that's technically it's a mafia hit not albanian... albanians are nothing when it comes to mafia wars they have not mafia but just gangs and a paramilitary group (uck) they are accustomed fight in a different way than mafia... yes an albanian was killed by gambino's in queens i don't find the link if i find i'll put... the italian mafia in usa killed policemen in the past they killed the police chief in new orleans and others they were involved in kennedy murder and they killed even a few judges and thousands of mafia members in the years (1.000 in chicago only) if you don't believe in me check this instead to check inesistent albanian murders, plus in usa there is not only italo-american mafia but italian syndicates there are over 3.000 sicilian born members according to fbi outside the local families and sorry but the albanians are only a few crews and the most important (rudaj crew) is not exist anymore, the albanian gangs are not the mafia they have not the longetivity of the mafia

According to the FBI, there are roughly 3,000 members and affiliates of the four Italian syndicates in the U.S.

Sicilian Mafia - 2,500
Camorra - 200
'Ndrangheta - 100-200
Sacra Corona Unita - "very few"

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/lcnindex.htm

[AlbaniaUnited]

yeah three murders ahahaha one is not sure being committed by albanians and the other two are supposed being committed by albanian shooters sent by gambino's so that's technically it's a mafia hit not albanian... albanians are nothing when it comes to mafia wars they have not mafia but just gangs and a paramilitary group (uck) they are accustomed fight in a different way than mafia... yes an albanian was killed by gambino's in queens i don't find the link if i find i'll put... the italian mafia in usa killed policemen in the past they killed the police chief in new orleans and others they were involved in kennedy murder and they killed even a few judges and thousands of mafia members in the years (1.000 in chicago only) if you don't believe in me check this instead to check inesistent albanian murders, plus in usa there is not only italo-american mafia but italian syndicates there are over 3.000 sicilian born members according to fbi outside the local families and sorry but the albanians are only a few crews and the most important (rudaj crew) is not exist anymore, the albanian gangs are not the mafia they have not the longetivity of the mafia

No The two Albanians who killed the servicemen at the club Scores were not sent by Italians. They were assasins for the Gambino family. Many of the Italian families now rely on Albanians for murder and other muscle work because of the incapability to do it themselves. As well as it bring heat towards them.

Albanians are not in gangs. Many of the Albanians operate today like the Sicilians did when they first came to America. Quiet, clannish, disciplined, speaking in their native tongue (making wire-tapping extremely difficult if not impossible) and operate amongst blood or marriage related partners. Yes we do have the UCK but that would be in Europe. Although there are former KLA members in America who have been used for execution.

No the Gambinos did not kill a member of the Rudaj gang. I will be needing prove of this to even consider that it happened. I have read numerous times about the Rudaj Organisation on several different articles and never have heard of retaliation from the Gambinos or any other Italian mafia family. The Rudajs went as far as to beat up made men.

There are not 3000 Sicilian born mobsters in the United States outside the American La Cosa Nostra thats only in your dreams. There are 3000 total Italian mobsters including their associates.

The Rudaj Organisation is first of all not a crew and it is far from being the most imporant Albanian gang in the United States.

[Faciulina]

No The two Albanians who killed the servicemen at the club Scores were not sent by Italians. They were assasins for the Gambino family

yes they were not sent by italians but by gambino's ahahah

Many of the Italian families now rely on Albanians for murder and other muscle work because of the incapability to do it

they don't use sometimes albanians because they can't do it by themselves but because they need people unknown by other mafiosi genius... they used sometimes the westies in the past to do the same kind of work... if they want they could also use yhe sicilians born to do it who are by far more expert than albanians

No the Gambinos did not kill a member of the Rudaj gang. I will be needing prove of this to even consider that it happened. I have read numerous times about the Rudaj Organisation on several different articles and never have heard of retaliation from the Gambinos

yes they did ckeck better... ahahah rudaj crew was associated with the gambino's therer are tons of proofs abolut it and the it was not all albanians there were italians who were members of it

There are not 3000 Sicilian born mobsters in the United States outside the American La Cosa Nostra thats only in your dreams. There are 3000 total Italian mobsters including their associates

yes i was wrong they are 2.500 sicilian born not 3.000 ahahah a very big difference

[AlbaniaUnited]

Quit pretending you have any idea about the method by which Capeci gets his estimates.

Quite pretending you have any idea about the Colombo family member estimate before Capeci. You no where close to Capeci's level of expertise on the mafia.

I've kept track of the estimates of the size of the LCN families in New York, as well as elsewhere, for years.

Lol 'thewestside' dont you have a life? You keep track of the estimates of the size of the LCN families in New York. Thats pretty sad I got to say.

Law enforcement press releases, government reports, indictments, media articles, etc. I gave you one official source from the New Jersey State Commission that cited 112 members for the Colombos in 2004. If that had been just a guess, they wouldn't have had a number like 112. The number would have been in 10 or 5 incriments like 115 or 110. The fact that they had 112 members shows they had that many names as confirmed members that year. That alone, to say nothing of all the other official estimates, demonstrates that Capeci's estimate of 75-85 is low. But here is more proof. A list of 96 confirmed Colombo members.

Boss: Carmine "Junior" Persico (IP)
Acting Boss: Thomas "Tommy Shots" Gieoli (UI)
UnderBoss: John "Sonny" Franzese (IP)
Consigliere: Joel "Waverly" Cacace (IP)

Captains:

1. Joseph Baudanza (IP)
2. Dino Calabro (UI)
3. Benjamin Castellazzo
4. Michael Catapano (IP)
5. James “Jimmy Green Eyes” Clamenza
6. Luca DiMatteo
7. Paul “Paulie Guns” Bevacqua
8. Ralph Lombardo
9. Andrew "Andy Mush" Russo
10. Michael Uvino (UI)

Soldiers:

1. Benedetto "Benny" Aloi (IP)
2. Vincent "Vinny" Aloi
3. Pasquale Amato (IP)
4. Joseph Carna
5. Robert “Bobby Bibbs” Cassamassino
6. Vincent Cascio
7. Aurelio “Ray” Cagno (IP)
8. Dominick Cataldo
9. Salvatore “Sally Bread” Cambria
10. John Cammarato
11. Frank “Campy” Campanella (UI)
12. Joseph “Joey Caves” Compatiello (IP)
13. Frank “Frankie Camp” Campione (IP)
14. Richard “The Jewler” Capichano
15. Alphonse Cirillo
16. Gerard “Jerry Green Eyes” Clamenza
17. Anthony Colombo (IP)
18. Joseph Colombo Jr (UI)
19. Jerome D’Agati
20. Leonard Dello
21. Dennis DeLucia
22. Vincent “Chickie” DeMartino (IP)
23. John "Jackie" DeRoss (IP)
24. Robert “Rob” Donofrio
25. Robert Falvo
26. Edward Fanelli
27. Thomas Farese
28. Richard “Ritchie Nerves” Fusco
29. Salvatore Fusco
30. Joseph Gorgone
31. Vincent Gugliaro
32. Joseph Iannaci
33. Anthony Induisi
34. Salvatore Lombardino (IP)
35. Gennaro "Gerry Lang" Langella (IP)
36. Joseph LaRosa
37. Joseph “Joe Legs” Legrano (IP)
38. Angelo Leto (IP)
39. Frank “Chickie” Leto (IP)
40. Benjamin Locicero
41. Frank Locicero
42. Joseph Lupo
43. James Malpeso
44. Anthony Maltese
45. Salvatore Mangiamelli
46. Reynolds Maragni
47. Craig Marino (IP)
48. Joseph “Joe Monte” Monteleone (IP)
49. Dominic "Donny Shacks" Montemarano
50. Victor Orena Jr
51. John Orena
52. Victor “Little Vic” Orena (IP)
53. Junior Palermo
54. Pasquale “Patsy” Palermo
55. Charles “Charlie Moose” Panarella (UI)
56. Thomas Petrizzo
57. Alphonse "Little Allie Boy" Persico (IP)
58. Daniel “Danny” Persico
59. Theodore “Teddy” Persico Jr
60. Theodore “Teddy” Persico Sr (IP)
61. Salvatore “Sally Pro” Profaci
62. Vincent "Vinny Unions" Ricciardo (IP)
63. John Rossatti
64. Anthony "Chucky" Russo (IP)
65. William “Billy” Russo
66. James Scianna
67. Anthony Scianni
68. John Scimone
69. Greg Scarpa Jr (IP)
70. Ralph Scopo Jr (UI)
71. Larry Sessa
72. Michael Sessa (IP)
73. Michael “Mikey” Souza (UI)
74. Nicoline Sorrentino
75. Frank Sparaco (IP)
76. Gus “Buddy” Spatafora
77. John Staluppi
78. Anthony Stropoli
79. Joseph "Joe T" Tomasello
80. Joseph “Joe” Tolino
81. Robert Zambardi (IP)
82. Joseph Zorzi

There is only 96 members on that list. Not 110 or 112. Whats wrong with you 'westside'? Can't you count?

First you said that you rated the Rudaj gang as a "sixth family," bringing up Capeci's low estimate of the Colombo family to support your case. Of course, like many thing, you then backtracked and said they weren't. Look at your comment above. You can't even make up your mind. You said the Rudaj gang almost amounted to the Colombos in numbers. And in the very next sentence you say they only amounted to half the Colombos. Which is it? And how is manpower up for debate? The Colombos are estimated to have 300-500 associates. So even if you went with the low figure of 75 members (even though they have more) and the lowest associate estimate of 300, you are looking at the Colombos having a manpower of 375 people. The Rudaj gang had no more than a few dozen.

When I said manpower 'westside' I meant clippers, shooter, men capable of running in a gambling spot and beating up everyone inside. The Colombos do not have 375 of these type of men. The majority of them are old and incapable of running at all. The Rudajs were all capable of doing this as they have proved it by doing it. This is why I said in terms of manpower, it is debatable while in terms of wealth and overall power. The Colombos exceed the Rudajs.

Exactly which source do you get that the Rudaj gang had 50 gambling spots? Please provide it. The FBI said they had 50+ video poker machines. Not 50 gambling spots like clubs, etc.

The gambling dens the mob ran in the NY area were very lucrative. The seven clubs listed above were among 50 gambling spots the gang ran. The RICO indictment attempts to seize $5.8 million in ill-gotten gains from seven defendants and $3.4 million from all 22 defendants, based on the gambling allegations.

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2004/11/ ... mafia.html

Why are you being wilfully ignorant? You know, as well as I do, that the authorities consider Russian crime groups to be more powerful than Albanian groups in the U.S.

I will need to see some cold hard evidence of this. I would also like to see from you some evidence that Russians pay tribute to any mafia family in NY because it is hard for me to believe that people like the Russians would pay the Italians.

I gave you a perfect example of the difference in sophistication and power between the LCN and other groups. But allow me to break it down even more. New York citizens have to pay higher prices in any number of industries, from garbage hauling, trucking, construction, wholesale food, and so on because of the mob tax built into these industries. Compare this to some Russian or Albanian gangsters shaking down some ethnic business owner in their communities. If you can't see the distinction then you are really clueless.

What you don't want to understand is that the tax that you speak of does not even build up to 0.03%. But you talk about it like we are paying the mafia 50% of our paychecks every week. As for the shake down comparison. In the end the Russians and Albanians would end up doing the same thing as the Italians and that would be collect protection money from the business. Except the Italians could do it easier depending on who the owner is. The Italians will be told to ''go fuck themselves'' before any Albanian or Russian though because of their new found way to steer clear of any sort of conflict.

You claimed that the CNN video said the Albanians were among the most powerful in New York. It did not. So yes, you did lie. I'm not arguing what the Rudaj gang did. I'm saying that what they did in no way is a sign of a turningpoint in American organized crime, which is what you and other Albanian posters like to believe.

I did not say the CNN video said the Albanians were among the top groups in New York. They implyed it. They said the Russians and Albanians are carving out peices of the mafias turf which is natural. The new deafeats the old. The Italians are still ranked the top organisation in New York but the Italians continue to lose tremendous strenght while the Russians and Albanians are gaining everyday. The Gambinos are on the verge of extinction for example. They are dividing themselves more and more a lot worse then they did during Castellanos reign and several dozens of members are being indicted every year. 50 or more just this year.

The Rudajs sticking a gun at The Squids face and telling the Gambinos to drop their weapons or they'll kill everybody did not symbolise the Albanians taking over the Italian mafia. It represented the new criminals in New York making their own place in the crime world as well as the tremendous loss of strength of the Italians.

If you have done even a minimal amount of research of other crime groups in the U.S., you would have likely heard of the Cuban Corporation. And, for the record, the Corporation's operations are primarily in New York and New Jersey, with Florida coming afterwards. I'm comparing the two because the original basis of this arguement was the relative power of these crime groups. Or did you forget that?

No I did not forget that. Did you forget your life somewhere? The Cuban Corporation is much more powerful then the Rudaj Corporation. You will find no argument from me on that one. I never said otherwise. I have read about the Cuban Corporation but I found a link about them on accident about two years ago and remember reading that they started in Florida or something and expanded to NY and NJ. The Cuban Corporation is very powerful. I would compare it to any of the five families in NY for sure. They might even exceed all of them

Give me a break. I hate Albanians simply because I have had to correct you about them? This is why you, JohnnyRed, and other Albanian posters are all the same. You are all insecure and think that anyone who doesn't agree with you must hate Albanians. JohnnyRed was pegged as a biased fool by most of the posters on this forum and now you have as well. Daut Kadriovski is another single Albanian drug trafficker, like Lika. You obviously do the same Google searches JohnnyRed has done to try and scour the internet for any mention of Albanian gangsters in the U.S. What Albanian gangsters in Canada put Rudaj to shame?

Before I answer you I would like to say you dont have to bring all Albanians into our argument because it is our argument. This proves your biased and racist towards Albanians. We are talking about NY crime and you mention Albanians being insecure and other BS. Albanians are not insecure and I hope you have an actual convo with an Albanian one day so he can show you just how insecure we are that's all I wish to say on this matter

Secondly I would like you to name one poster on here who 'pegs me as a fool'. Even Razbojnik who showed the most aggression towards JohnnyRed and Albanians in gerneral has admitted respect for me. Oh wait I forgot Faciulina who thinks there are 3000 Sicilian mobsters outside the American LCN might peg me as a fool. And you because I wont let you say the Italians dominant ever aspect of human life in every single country in the world.

Daut Kadriovski was one of the very top drug traffickers in Europe. He created a pipeline to Australia with the Albanians in Sydney. Now hes in the U.S operating here. He is a global trafficker. He is one of Americas main sources of Afghan heroin and has liutenants in NY and Philly. How does he qualify as a single trafficker? I don't even know what you mean by this. A ''single trafficker''. Are stupidly implying that hes smuggling the drugs in himself and selling it alone? Ismail Lika was accused of smuggling $125 million worth of heroin during the time the feds investigated him. Why do you continuely downsize every Albanian personality or organisation?

Good grief, will you do some actual research instead of talking out of your ass? Zef Mustafa started out as a driver for former Gambino underboss Frank Locascio. He is a longtime associate in the Locascio crew, now run by Frank's son Salvatore. He works for the Gambino family.

Zef Mustafa was a very high-level associate of the Gamino family. He grew up with the Locascio's and considered Tore his father since he was an orphan. Zef Mustafa was considered extremely violent and viscious. He was also a friend of John Gotti, he was caught on tape entering the Ravenite club 115 times during a 3 year span. There is nothing wrong working with an Italian mafia family. He was raised with the Locascios since childhood. Also according to the article you gave me it seems that Zef scared even his fellow wise guys.

Albanians have not gained the most notoriety for drug trafficking in the U.S. Europe, yes, but not in America. In the U.S. Albanian gangsters are most known for illegal gambling and burglary operations.

Wrong. I live here I have an insight as well as official looks into what Albanians are known for. And that would be Drugs and Arms trafficking even in America.

What made members did they beat up? They assaulted some Greeks in Queens and reportedly shot a low level Bonanno associate. Whether in the indictment or elsewhere, there has never been any mention of a single made member being beat up by the Rudaj guys.

They beat up several made men. The FBI stated it.

Yes, Rudaj and other leaders of the gang had money to invest in property. That is well known. So? The gang's interests, both legal and illegal, basically amounted to that of a single LCN crew. Not an entire family.

Why could you possibly know this? Your talking ignorantly again. You give your ideas of the lowest possible estimate according to yourself. No one is interested in hearing what you think. You have no proof for have the things you. I have already told you the Rudajs do not amount to any Italian mafia families in NY. Give it up already. But dont come on heres and give us your ideas and very own estimates which are lowered tremendously due to your biased and ignorant mind.

I'll say this one more time. I am not Italian. I have never edited Wikipedia. You want to believe this because you feel it helps your case. But everyone here knows that you are the one who is biased because you are Albanian. You are JohnnyRed all over again.

One, you are Italian. Two, you might have edited wikipedia being as you used it for many of your sources. Three, I do not feel it helps my case because my case revolves around facts. Yours revolves around the Italians past history and your very own ideas and racist judgements. If this was not true you would not be coming on here talking about Albanians outside the NY mafia. Which you have done numerously. I have not said anything negative about Italians besides they lack discipline, morals and toughness compared to their counterparts in Italy. You have made many negative remarks about Albanians outside NY crime which proves you are biased and racist towards Albanians due to your past experience with a 12 year Albanian names JohnnyRed. This also proves how pitiful and ignorant you are. You let a 12 year make your judgement of an entire race of 12-15 million people worldwide.

You're talking out of your ass again. I talk about many crime groups, not just the Italians. Like JohnnyRed, you speak primarily about the Albanians. Yes, La Cosa Nostra is in decline. But it's a very slow decline, especially in New York.

Correction it is a somewhat fast decline. Indictments are being handed down like bread at a family table. Wiseguys are flipping more then ever under court pressure and snitches are being placed all over the Italian mafia. It was due to a snitch that all those mafia members were indicted.

I talk about Albanian groups primarily because the main subject on this forum is about Albanians. Albanian threads keep opening up and like I said seem to be the main subect on this forum. I also talk about other groups but no other groups are talked about like the Albanians on this forum. This is why it might seem like I am talking only about Albanians.

There have been many predictions over the years of the Mafia's demise, only to be shown to be premature. Both law enforcement authorities and some media outlets have become much more careful about declaring the end of the mob in New York. Yes, they are no longer as powerful as they once were. But they are still significantly more powerful than any other group. They still control labor unions and have influence in various legitimate industries. 750 of the remaining 1,100 members of the LCN in the U.S. belong to the five New York families. That's about 70%. The only thing that will see the end of the five New York families is general attrition. Repeated indictments, rats, etc. chip away at the organizations but they don't see the end of them.

In 2003, PMC International, a police consulting agency, described how the Russian mob still has to give the LCN a cut of it's activities in the New York/New Jersey area.
http://www.providencephoenix.com/featur ... 288673.asp

You don't see the end of them and won't for a while. But while the Italians lose a point continuesly. The Albanians, Russians, Chinese continue to gain points.

Frankly, I don't really care what the Albanian population is in the U.S. But I do care that I have to constantly correct your hyping the Albanians. And this is probably another case. But even if you are correct, and there are 550,000-750,000 Albanians in the U.S., they still don't match the population of the other ethnic groups in question. And that was the original point made.

No I wouldnt be correct about the Albanian population in the U.S. The Albanian-American Civic League would be correct about the population. I do not hype up the Albanians. You continue to hype the Italians and downsize everyone else.

Remember Jerry Capeci, the foremost expert on the American Mafia? Here are some key excerpts from a 2006 interview -

Has the Russian mob eclipsed the Italian?

No. And like all other emerging ethnic organized-crime networks, it never will. Not because Italian-American gangsters are any smarter or more ruthless than the others, but because the law enforcement community has learned important lessons from its prior years of abject failure in curtailing the Mafia. For nearly 20 years now, the F.B.I. and other investigative agencies have recruited members of emerging ethnic groups to combat the organized-crime elements in their midst. In the 1980's, for example, the F.B.I. — unlike J. Edgar Hoover, who essentially ignored the Mafia and viewed Italian-American applicants with distrust — began recruiting Chinese- and Russian-speaking agents to deal with emerging organized-crime influence in those communities.

Who are the newest kids on the mob block?

Albanian gangsters are the latest ethnic criminals to be presented by authorities as competition for the old and dying Mafiosi. Like Irish, Cuban, Russian, Chinese and Greek hoodlums before them, the Albanians are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob. There are nowhere near enough of them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/05/weeki ... wanted=all

Although this guy as well exhaggerates a little bit as well. Not to mention he's Italian. One example would be he said nobody will EVER replace the Italians. Thats a little far fetched. He is right about the Albanians not being as powerful as the Italians in 2008 America. I never argued that.

I've researched just about everything surrounding the Rudaj gang. You're the one who enters arguments without all the facts and talking out of your ass.

No I continuesly have to prove you wrong on numerous facts. then you go and get mad and make slurs against all Albanians, criminals or not.

It's obvious why the meeting was called. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered. Even if they had pointed guns in the Gambino's faces, they would have had more guns pointed back at them. They got the Gambinos to back off by threatening to blow up the gas pump. But regardless of this, the underlying point is the same. This in no way amounted to a turningpoint in American organized crime.

Hahahahaha. Oh wow man. your so dillusional. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered because Arnold called a meeting. Not a war. Arnold and his driver were expected to come alone so Alex Rudaj came with only two guys. Of course like always Albanians were a step ahead of their conflicts and assumed the Gambinos would try something. So when the Gambino men came out, one gun was pointed at Arnold Squitieri and a shotgun was pointed as a gas pump threatening to kill everybody if they didn't care enough to put there guns down because their boss was going to get shot in the face. This is a prime example of the Albanians extreme ways which in my mind should be respected. Not because there Albanians and so am I. Like I said numerous times. This did not mark the Albanians taking over the Italian mafia,. Rather it marked the Albanians being able to hold their ground and heavily disrespect the second most powerful mafia family in the country.

There is a single example of an Albanian gang taking on the LCN - the Rudaj gang. But you talk as if it's a continuing trend. The LCN has always used other ethnic groups for low level enforcement work as killers, enforcers, debt collectors, etc. The Albanians are no different.

Yes, but now more then ever. The main assassins for the Gamino family are Albanian. And even bosses have had Albanian bodyguards. It is not a continuing trend because the Italians from what I have read try to steer clear of Albanians now a days because of their outright violence. Like one Italian captain said "I fucking hate Albanians, if you get into an argument with them you must make sure that you kill them right away". Why? Because if you don't they will keep coming back at you like Nicky Santoro's case, "they'll just keep coming back and back until one of you is dead". This is a quality of Albanians I do not like but it is due to oppression, severe living conditions and extreme pride.

There is evidence that the Albanians are among the top groups in New York if you're talking about top ten. But the evidence also shows they are at least behind the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Colombians, and Cubans.

Like I said before. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. At least I got Albanians ranked sixth from you. Thats as much as I can hope for from you. I have a different opinion so once more I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

You haven't heard of them because you haven't done much research on crime groups outside of the Albanians. Just like JohnnRed. You argue all your points from a postion of ignorance. What I have said about the Cubans are based on research and fact. I gave you a few sources where could research them yourself. But you won't because you aren't interested in the facts. You are only intersted in believing in whatever says the Albanians are superior than a given group.

No I am very interested in the Cubans especially now since you mentioned them and since I skimmed through that long report of them. I have a some what fascination with Cubans because they are very similar to Albanians countrywise and pride wise.

The Italians are still considered the most powerful by law enforcement because of their power and influence over labor unions and legitimate industries in New York. All this in addition to their illicit operations in illegal gambling, loansharking, extortion, drug trafficking, etc. The Albanians don't have this, which is why the Colombians are considered more powerful Read the latest threat assessement from the DEA I've posted numerous times. The Colombians are the main suppliers to the Northeast, including New York, and the Dominicans are the main wholesale distributors.

Well if that is your opinion I respect it. You choose not to respect my opinion and thats find. I don't think the Albanians would be behing the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Colombians and Dominicans. But then again I don't know where to place any of these organisations based on one, two, three ranks. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. These seven are very well the most powerful in New york though. Where they are ranked I will not say because I don't know. I'll leave it to you to say since your obviously the God of organised crime.

YouTube? You really are grasping at straws here. Yes, Albanian groups are involved in all of those things. That doesn't mean they are more powerful than Russian or other groups.

How am I grasping at straws? The Albanians are most notorious for drugs trafficking but you ignorantly think that Alex Rudaj (Gambling boss) is the most powerful Albanian gangsteri n the United States. So whose grasping at straws you or me? Secondly the Albanians are secondly known for Arms trafficking, robbery, then construction.

Call me ignorant and biased all you want. I think it's obvious to most people here who is really ignorant and biased. We've seen it all before with JohnnyRed. You are simply JohnnyRed #2. I don't twist your words, I simply point out that you often talk out of your ass.

For the record, I live in the western U.S.

That is about the tenth time you have accused me for talking out my ass. Which shows anger and hates towards me which would affect your judgement. Secondly you always twist my words around and make it seem like I said something stupid. I guess that how you try to win a debate. Thirdly this has turned into a debate between ourselves more then a debate about Albanian and other organised crime. Most of your quotes are calling me stupid, ignorant or accusing me talking out my ass. Which shows your own ignorance and stupidity. If I am JohnnyRed #2 then you are just a better English-speaking Faciulina deal?


And if you don't mind lets stop quoting each other from now on because it gets annoying writing [quote and [/quote over and over again. And this would be the second time I wrote this same post. I did the same thing yesterday and it was erased because my computer froze.

[AlbaniaUnited]

yes they were not sent by italians but by gambino's ahahah

they don't use sometimes albanians because they can't do it by themselves but because they need people unknown by other mafiosi genius... they used sometimes the westies in the past to do the same kind of work... if they want they could also use yhe sicilians born to do it who are by far more expert than albanians

yes they did ckeck better... ahahah rudaj crew was associated with the gambino's therer are tons of proofs abolut it and the it was not all albanians there were italians who were members of it

yes i was wrong they are 2.500 sicilian born not 3.000 ahahah a very big difference

Faciulina do you really see yourself as a smart person?

One: They were assassins in the Gamino Crime Family. They were not sent there to kill two servicemen. They shot them because of an argument they had based on the level of service. It had nothing to do with the Gambinos.

Two: One murder they do not know if the Albanian mafia is responsible or not but all roads lead to them.

Three: There are no where near 2,500 Sicilian born gangster in the United States. There are 3000 total Italian mobster of all four Italian syndicates in the United States. The 3,000 number is INCLUDING THEIR ASSOCIATES.

Four: No the Italians who not be murder experts compared to Albanians as many of the Gambino's main assassins (meaning high-level and very efficient assassin) as Albanians. The main reason they hire Albanians as top level assassins for their families is because many members of their family are incapable of an efficient and precise killing but very little match the efficient killers they hire of other ethnicities. I think it might just be an Eastern European thing. Take Richard Kuklinski for example lol.

[thewestside]

Quite pretending you have any idea about the Colombo family member estimate before Capeci. You no where close to Capeci's level of expertise on the mafia.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? It isn't a case of Capeci vs. me. It is a case of Capeci (and one estimate which he got from a law enforcement source) against the average of several other estimates from law enforcement sources. If you were being honest, you would admit that the latter is more reliable.

There is only 96 members on that list. Not 110 or 112. Whats wrong with you 'westside'? Can't you count?

The list is not all inclusive. It is only those names that have been able to be verified independently. But the main point is that 96 names being listed here shows that estimate of 75-85 members of the Colombo Family is too low. Can't you count?

When I said manpower 'westside' I meant clippers, shooter, men capable of running in a gambling spot and beating up everyone inside. The Colombos do not have 375 of these type of men. The majority of them are old and incapable of running at all. The Rudajs were all capable of doing this as they have proved it by doing it. This is why I said in terms of manpower, it is debatable while in terms of wealth and overall power. The Colombos exceed the Rudajs.

If you want to use that selective definition of "manpower," that is fine. But even then, an LCN Family with at least 100 members and 3-5 times as many associates is going to have more shooters and enforcers than a gang with a total membership of a few dozen.

The gambling dens the mob ran in the NY area were very lucrative. The seven clubs listed above were among 50 gambling spots the gang ran. The RICO indictment attempts to seize $5.8 million in ill-gotten gains from seven defendants and $3.4 million from all 22 defendants, based on the gambling allegations.

http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2004/11/ ... mafia.html

First off, thank you for providing a source on this. Second, you should keep in mind that "gambling spots" can mean many things. Gambling clubs? Yes. But most of that 50 gambling spots figure was likely outlets for the gang's video poker machines.

I will need to see some cold hard evidence of this. I would also like to see from you some evidence that Russians pay tribute to any mafia family in NY because it is hard for me to believe that people like the Russians would pay the Italians.

I'm not going to hold your hand in every little thing. Russian crime groups being more powerful in both New York and the rest of the U.S. than Albanian groups is common knowledge. This is what I mean by you being "wilfully ignorant." You know the Russians are considered more powerful but you are pretending otherwise.

Russian mobsters have been paying LCN Families in New York since the late 1970's. One of the first and most famous examples is when Russian and Eastern European gangsters developed that fuel tax evasion scam and the LCN moved in and took over the operation, forcing the Russians to make them their partners or at least pay them a tax. Now do all Russian mobsters pay the LCN in all instances? No. But in many instances, that is still the case.

Here again is a link -

In 2003, PMC International, a police consulting agency, described how the Russian mob still has to give the LCN a cut of it's activities in the New York/New Jersey area.
http://www.providencephoenix.com/featur ... 288673.asp

What you don't want to understand is that the tax that you speak of does not even build up to 0.03%. But you talk about it like we are paying the mafia 50% of our paychecks every week. As for the shake down comparison. In the end the Russians and Albanians would end up doing the same thing as the Italians and that would be collect protection money from the business. Except the Italians could do it easier depending on who the owner is. The Italians will be told to ''go fu-- themselves'' before any Albanian or Russian though because of their new found way to steer clear of any sort of conflict.

Nobody said everyone is giving the Mafia 50% of their paychecks. But the built in "mob tax" that New Yorkers pay due to inflated prices induced by organized crime in any number of industries is substantial. And it dwarfs any extortion operations by other groups. Through control of labor unions, industry associations, and key companies, the LCN can inflate costs across the board in the waterfront, garbage hauling, construction, trucking, food wholesaling, and so on. You're telling me you don't see a difference between this and a Russian, Chinese, or Albanian gangster shaking down local businesses in their own communities through the threat of violence?

I did not say the CNN video said the Albanians were among the top groups in New York. They implyed it. They said the Russians and Albanians are carving out peices of the mafias turf which is natural. The new deafeats the old. The Italians are still ranked the top organisation in New York but the Italians continue to lose tremendous strenght while the Russians and Albanians are gaining everyday. The Gambinos are on the verge of extinction for example. They are dividing themselves more and more a lot worse then they did during Castellanos reign and several dozens of members are being indicted every year. 50 or more just this year.

Yes, you could say the video implied the Albanians are one of the top groups in New York. That isn't the disagreement. The disagreement comes from you assuming that simply because the Albanians were mentioned, that they are as powerful as the Russians or Chinese, or even more powerful than other groups like the Cubans. I explained why this is not the case.

The fact that you said "the Gambinos are on the verge of extinction" is proof positive that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you realize that many were predicting the Gambino's demise over 15 years ago following the conviction of Gotti? The media, and some law enforcement officials, have historically been very quick and premature in their predictions of the demise of La Cosa Nostra. Only in recent times have they become more careful about making those statements.

There have not been 50 members Gambino members indicted this year. The biggest bust (back in February) involved 87 people - 27 members and 60 associates. As is the usual case, most of the defendants made plea deals and got relatively light sentences. For instance, those in the Gambino administration - Jackie D'Amico, Domenico Cefalu, and Joseph Corozzo - are only doing a few years or so each. So far the biggest one hit was captain Nick Corozzo, who pled out for 15 years. But that was because he was facing murder charges.

In the end, however, the Gambinos are the second strongest LCN Family in the U.S. after the Genovese. They have about 200 members and 600-1,000 associates. They have huge operations in illegal gambling, loansharking, exortion, drug trafficking, labor racketeering, fraud, stolen goods, as well as interests in the waterfront, garbage, construction, and trucking industries. The Gambinos own bars, restaurants, nightclubs, strip clubs, food and beverage wholesaling firms, real estate companies, vending outlets, etc. Very far from being extinct.

The Rudajs sticking a gun at The Squids face and telling the Gambinos to drop their weapons or they'll kill everybody did not symbolise the Albanians taking over the Italian mafia. It represented the new criminals in New York making their own place in the crime world as well as the tremendous loss of strength of the Italians.[/b][/i]

If that was really the case, there would be more examples besides the Rudaj gang of other groups trying to take on the LCN. I'll ask you again to give me some examples. What the Rudaj gang had been done before. For example, black operaters tried taking over the Lucchese Family's numbers territories in New Jersey years ago. But just like the Rudaj gang, they were ultimately not successful.

Once again, the meeting at the gas station was just that - a meeting at a gas station. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered and to get the Gambinos to back off one of them threatened to shoot a gas pump. Did they hold their ground? Yes. Were they showing disrespect to the LCN? Yes. Would such a thing have happened 50 years ago? No. But that meeting, or anything else the Rudaj gang did, only showed that the Albanians - like every other group - are carving out their own piece in the American underworld. But those instances were simply not evidence of some great landmark or turningpoint in the organized crime landscape.

No I did not forget that. Did you forget your life somewhere? The Cuban Corporation is much more powerful then the Rudaj Corporation. You will find no argument from me on that one. I never said otherwise. I have read about the Cuban Corporation but I found a link about them on accident about two years ago and remember reading that they started in Florida or something and expanded to NY and NJ. The Cuban Corporation is very powerful. I would compare it to any of the five families in NY for sure. They might even exceed all of them

The Corporation's founder, Jose Miguel Battle, started out in Florida working for Santo Trafficante, Meyer Lansky, and other LCN members and associates. In terms of it's illegal gambling operations, especially numbers, the Cuban Corporation could match any single New York LCN Family. But, overall, any single New York LCN Family is more powerful.

Before I answer you I would like to say you dont have to bring all Albanians into our argument because it is our argument. This proves your biased and racist towards Albanians. We are talking about NY crime and you mention Albanians being insecure and other BS. Albanians are not insecure and I hope you have an actual convo with an Albanian one day so he can show you just how insecure we are that's all I wish to say on this matter

For crying out loud, I didn't bring Albanians into the argument. You accused me of being biased against Albanians simply because I disagree with some of your claims about them. JohnnyRed did the same thing. And like I said before, Albanian posters are rather well known for creating havoc on organized crime forums and message boards. You and JohnnyRed are evidence of this, being too of the biggest shit-stirrers on this board alone.

Secondly I would like you to name one poster on here who 'pegs me as a fool'. Even Razbojnik who showed the most aggression towards JohnnyRed and Albanians in gerneral has admitted respect for me. Oh wait I forgot Faciulina who thinks there are 3000 Sicilian mobsters outside the American LCN might peg me as a fool. And you because I wont let you say the Italians dominant ever aspect of human life in every single country in the world.

I would agree that Faciulina is the Italian JohnnyRed. But you are really no different. In the beginning you were reasonable but you soon morphed into a JohnnyRed clone.

Daut Kadriovski was one of the very top drug traffickers in Europe. He created a pipeline to Australia with the Albanians in Sydney. Now hes in the U.S operating here. He is a global trafficker. He is one of Americas main sources of Afghan heroin and has liutenants in NY and Philly. How does he qualify as a single trafficker? I don't even know what you mean by this. A ''single trafficker''. Are stupidly implying that hes smuggling the drugs in himself and selling it alone? Ismail Lika was accused of smuggling $125 million worth of heroin during the time the feds investigated him. Why do you continuely downsize every Albanian personality or organisation?[/b][/i]

I'm not trying to downsize Kadriovski or any Albanian. If anything, you are oversizing them like you did here. He is not one of America's main sources of heroin. The vast majority of the heroin smuggled into the U.S. comes from Colombia and Mexico. Relatively little comes from sources in the Middle East, which is where an Albanian trafficker like Kadriovski would get his supply.

Zef Mustafa was a very high-level associate of the Gamino family. He grew up with the Locascio's and considered Tore his father since he was an orphan. Zef Mustafa was considered extremely violent and viscious. He was also a friend of John Gotti, he was caught on tape entering the Ravenite club 115 times during a 3 year span. There is nothing wrong working with an Italian mafia family. He was raised with the Locascios since childhood. Also according to the article you gave me it seems that Zef scared even his fellow wise guys.

Did I say there was anything wrong with Mustafa working for an LCN Family? Quite the opposite. I have repeatedly said that Mustafa made more money working for the Gambinos than Rudaj ever did fighting against them.

Wrong. I live here I have an insight as well as official looks into what Albanians are known for. And that would be Drugs and Arms trafficking even in America.

Yes, the Albanians are involved in both drugs and arms trafficking. But, in terms of drug trafficking, it is still on a relatively small scale compared to other groups and that is not what they are most known for. Like many other groups, the Albanians have their biggest presence in New York. And there, generally speaking, they are most well known for illegal gambling and burglary operations.

Correction it is a somewhat fast decline. Indictments are being handed down like bread at a family table. Wiseguys are flipping more then ever under court pressure and snitches are being placed all over the Italian mafia. It was due to a snitch that all those mafia members were indicted.

Italian crime groups have been in the U.S. for over a century. The New York Families have existed for over 75 years. The LCN began to decline as a whole in the 1970's due to any number of factors but the speed at which it has declined has varied from city to city. New York has always had the largest LCN presence, with five large families compared to a single smaller one in other cities. Today, 750 of the remaining 1,100 members in the American LCN (or about 70%) belong to the five New York families. They get hit with numerous indictments every year. But all the indictments, rats, competition from other groups, etc. do is slowly weaken the families. The only thing that will see the end of the LCN families in New York is general attrtion and that won't be for years to come. Decades really.

Although this guy as well exhaggerates a little bit as well. Not to mention he's Italian. One example would be he said nobody will EVER replace the Italians. Thats a little far fetched. He is right about the Albanians not being as powerful as the Italians in 2008 America. I never argued that.

Isnt' that interesting? When Capeci says something you like, his word is gold. When he says something you don't like, he is "exaggerating." And just like JohnnyRed did, you say he's doing it because he is Italian.

Capeci is correct in saying no other group will ever replace the Italians. And that is simply because the same sociological, political, economic, and law enforcement factors that allowed the LCN to become as powerful in the U.S. as it did are simply not there today for other crime groups.

Well if that is your opinion I respect it. You choose not to respect my opinion and thats find. I don't think the Albanians would be behing the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Colombians and Dominicans. But then again I don't know where to place any of these organisations based on one, two, three ranks. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. These seven are very well the most powerful in New york though. Where they are ranked I will not say because I don't know. I'll leave it to you to say since your obviously the God of organised crime.

I would respect you opinion more if it was more researched and consistent. Now you don't think the Albanians would be behind the Italians? See what I mean about you not being able to make up your mind?

[razbojnik]

What the fuck are we doing talking about Italians? But continue...

[Faciulina]

You don't see the end of them and won't for a while. But while the Italians lose a point continuesly. The Albanians, Russians, Chinese continue to gain points.

sorry but you're totally wrong russians and albanians are not anymore what they used to be in middle 1990s they're losing points now we are in 2008 not 1997... the chineses maybe gain points abroad since 1997 although the chinese goverment put its hand in their homeland hong kong so in their country they are weaker than the past... the italians in usa losed point in 1990s but they gain points again at least after 2001 because of the twice tower attack so the italians is getting stronger and stronger in usa since than... and yes according to fbi there are 3.000 italian born mobster in usa outiside local families check the official fbi site please
the albanians are nothing in usa there are at least 15 etnich groups stronger than them in new york only a few albanian shooters are used by gambino's not most like you said ahahah the gambino's are full of sicilian born they don't need albanians to shot somebody that's just in your mind

[Grinch]

You don't see the end of them and won't for a while. But while the Italians lose a point continuesly. The Albanians, Russians, Chinese continue to gain points.

sorry but you're totally wrong russians and albanians are not anymore what they used to be in middle 1990s they're losing points now we are in 2008 not 1997... the chineses maybe gain points abroad since 1997 although the chinese goverment put its hand in their homeland hong kong so in their country they are weaker than the past... the italians in usa losed point in 1990s but they gain points again at least after 2001 because of the twice tower attack so the italians is getting stronger and stronger in usa since than... and yes according to fbi there are 3.000 italian born mobster in usa outiside local families check the official fbi site please
the albanians are nothing in usa there are at least 15 etnich groups stronger than them in new york only a few albanian shooters are used by gambino's not most like you said ahahah the gambino's are full of sicilian born they don't need albanians to shot somebody that's just in your mind

You are from Italy??

[Faciulina]

yes but i live in germany now