SANTOS wrote:Hijole,...this here topico is crazy deep, Lobo. Much here for a true loco to stop and think on.
Roll the pelota a lil further holmes. Like, what aspects of varrio arte are you speaking about specifically?:.
Lonewolf wrote:lf"]chicano arte from the streets., not from the muralistic aspect, but from the chicano world on the calles., it is as if we have built up this visual empire to root for which comes to us from indio folklore, and from nationalist muralists, but our chucos have elaborated on it, turning it into a smiles and crys type of life to live by, and we glorify that type of arte., we have build it up to the point where only we understand it, because not even our folks at home understand it., it is only for those who live the life of the varrio who understand it, and it is almost as if our true arte del varrio has been hijacked and turned into simply gang art., so i wonder just how much of that was in fact promoted by the powers to be, as part of a grand scheme to engulf our gente into a way of life to be proud of, but one which does ourselves so much harm and keeps us ignorant of the real history, the real art, the real meaning of that art, and who it came from., it's like we have lost our art to a foreign mind., like when you see the chingon azteca with a feathered headress holding in his arm a semi-nakes fine mamacita of an indian woman., what is that? and where did that come from? and what does it mean, really? how does the semi-naked woman with firme tetas represent our gente? it's like we draw, and we paint, and we ink up things and more things, but it only has certain personal value, it has little to no real political value., no true educating of minds in our roots and our ways, it is simple drawn and advertized as firme art, but that's it.
SANTOS wrote:Damn homeboy, theres so many points to hit on in what you say.
Pero ta buti complicado, ese.
Cause theres so many layers involved.
Y the cointelpro comes from ALL sides.
Por ejemplo, your observation about the feathered aztec and his mamasota n chet, and where does that come from and what does it mean.
Esos imagenes were implanted directly from Mexico... from the famous calendar arte of people like Jesus Helguera and Jose Bribiesca,
who painted them EXACTLY like that in the 30's and 40's.
Its what we have seen for many decades, copied all over, in our tacas, our murales, on our ranflas, t-shirts, album covers y dondequieras.
And the whole purpose behind producing these in the first place,...much less at all,.. was the product of a whole government campaign right after the revolution, to create a new kind of Mexican nationalism.
One that was extremely visual and that sought to incorporate its indigenous heritage, .....but ONLY through mythologization of a self-serving criollo fantasy.
One where ALL the Indians were Aztecs,...and had european features.
Where the conciousness of Mexico's indigenous roots and history are reduced to nationalistic pop art and tourist trinkets.
These images were never intended to educate or have any political value.
In fact the opposite. To mess with our heads.
To condition us to see ourselves, ..not as we really are,..but the way the mexican criollo government WANTS us to see ourselves.
And that's the function of those images IN Mexico,...BEFORE it even reaches the calles up here. So like I said, many layers involved.
Theres plenty other examples besides this, of infiltration by the mexican government into the Chicano movement during the 60's y 70's.
Not counting infiltration from other places as well.
All working to keep the Raza in a haze.:.
Lonewolf wrote:^ ^ which reminds me of the question asked...
DEAR MEXICAN: Why do so many Chicanos claim to be Aztec?
answer by Chicano Stuck In Leavenworth
DEAR GABACHO: You're right. The beaner love for everything Aztec mostly stems from the Chicano Movement, whose members appropriated various Mexica iconography (the stylized United Farm Workers black eagle, the concept of Aztlán, the airbrushed paintings of warriors and scantily clad heinas on car trunks and blankets) to make a long-vanquished culture their own during an era when they were searching for an ethnic heritage. They, in turn, got the idea from indigenismo, the Mexican intellectual movement from the 1920s that took pride in Mexico's Indian past. And the indigenistas, in turn, went with the Aztecs because they're the Lost Cause of Mexico. There is more known about the Aztec empire than other Mexican indigenous groups because the Conquest—the foundation myth of Mexico—involved battles between the Aztecs and Spaniards that featured copious documentation, both in the codices that survived and the Spanish chronicles. The ultimate symbol of Mexico—the golden eagle perched on a cactus, snake in its beak—references the Aztec legend of the foundation of Tenochtitlan. And Nahuatl words are muchos in Mexican Spanish—for the gabachos at home, any word that ends with the suffix -te (chocolate, tomate, cacahuate, aguacate) came from the Nahuatl suffix –tl.
But the Mexican must admit he cringes at Aztec worship. For one, all that obsession comes at the expense of other tribes, tribes the Aztecs probably would've killed or subjugated if they were still around—they were the Romans of Mexico, and I don't mean that as a compliment. In addition, that romanticizing has problematic roots: indigenismo was part of bigger project of justifying modernity at the expense of the past. "Indigenismo was . . . a means to an end rather than an enduring mission,"If incorporation was its aim, then essentially it sought to destroy rather than fortify the peasant culture of native communities. Modernising nationalism of the brand advocated by [Mexican intellectuals] found consolation in past glories, but its inner vision was based in the liberal resolve to transform a backward country into a modern nation able to defend itself from foreign hegemony."
But, hey, if you want to change your name from Jose Gonzalez to Nezahualcoyotl Moctezuma and go to sweat lodges on weekends even though you're lighter-skinned than a Southern belle, be my guest! I'm sure your ancestors who fought the Aztecs—both indigenous and Hispanic—would've approved!
SANTOS wrote:Simon k si,..gotta protect that criollo hegemony from the "foreign" hegemony!
[smilie=lol.gif]
But this is only part of a much wider cointelpro strategy that the Mexican governement has used to infiltrate the Chicano movement.
For instance, the whole idea of "Aztlan".
We take for granted this idea of a Chicano homeland, ....but where did it come from???
I'll tell you holmes, it didnt come from Chicanos.
The idea of "Aztlan", was certainly not born from a "
Chicano" mind.
It was born from the same post-revolution AZTEC FANTASY government propoganda that produced that arte of Jesus Helguera and all the other calendar artists.
It was inserted into our communities from the OUTSIDE, by the iconic so-called "Chicano" poet named Alurista.
Who in fact, wasnt born or raised a Chicano at all, ...but got into it when he moved from Mexico City to San Diego in the early 60's.
It was with his "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan" that he recited at the 1969 Denver Youth Conference that the concept of a Chicano homeland called Aztlan was first put into our mentes.
This same strategy was also taken to the next level, in the "Aztec" dancing groups you see all through Califas, in our barrios and all the other Raza grounds in the southwest.
Again, this is something else we Raza take for granted. But do we know where it came from? What it means?
Orale, ..do you think it is called "Aztec" dancing by coincidence??
Again, ... like before, this dance culture was not created within our communities by "us".
By us, I mean, Chicanos independently seeking their raices.
Nelson.
Aztec dancing was IMPLANTED into our communities by Mexican government sponsored/funded dance teachers, like Florencio Yescas, etc., who came through San Diego and Texas in the 1970's, with the deliberate purpose of setting up groups everywhere. To springboard off of and capitalize on the "Aztlan" concept that had just taken hold amongst the Chicanada.
In order to drill further into our vulnerable Chicano mentes, the same "Aztec" mind game program the Mexican government uses to manipulate our Raza on the other side of the frontera. :.
Lonewolf wrote:'TA CABRONE EL PEDO, HOLMES
LIKE I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN FROM A CERTAIN AGE UP THAT EL GOBIERNO, WHETHER HERE IN THESE UNITED STATES, OR DOWN SOUTH IN MEXICO ARE KORRUPT TO THE MAX., ALWAYS PLAYING ON WORDS., PLAYING ON IGNORANCES AND SHIT., PLAYING ON NATIONAL PRIDE TO SAY THE LEAST., A STRAIGHT UP KRAZY FUCKED UP DEVIOUS MINDS THOSE PEOPLE AT THE TOP HAVE., THEY PAINT EVERYTHING BEAUTIFUL., MAKE IT ALL LOOK LIKE WE'RE ALL DOING SOMETHING GOOD FOR THE CAUSE., BUT HOW FAR ARE WE ALL FROM TRUE SOUL, QUE NO? OR ARE WE EVER CLOSER THAN WE THINK? BESIDES ALL THE MASA., BESIDES ALL THE DISTRACTIONS., ALL THE DIFFERENT DIREC'TIONS THAT WE ALL TAKE IN THIS CONVOLUTED WORLD., THERE'S STILL SOUL., THERE'S STILL SOUL LEFT IN OUR HEARTS., IT'S THE LEFTOVER FROM A PAST GONE BY AND LITTLE BUT REMEMBERED BY MOST, LOOKING AT IT FROM A CERTAIN PERSPECTIVE., BUT IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT IT FROM A DIFFERENT SIDE, YOU'LL SEE THAT THE INDIO WAYS STILL LIVE INSIDE OF US., THAT'S WHAT KEEPS US "INTERESTED"., EVEN THOUGH HERE AND EVERYWHERE WE DUKE IT OUT., LEANING TOWARDS THIS SIDE OF HISTORY OR ANOTHER., THAT OLD HEART., THAT OLD SOUL STILL LIVES., IT LIVES AND THE FLAME CAN NEVER BE PUT OUT., MY ONLY BEEF WITH THIS TOPIC IS WITH THE TAKE OVER OF GANG ART OVER BARRIO BATO SOUL ART., I WAS AROUND WHEN THE HOMIES WHOULD BE CAREFUL WHAT INK THEY THREW ON THEIR FLESH., TINTA HAD TO HAVE A DEEP LOVINGLY MEANING., IT HAD TO HAVE A CONNECTION WITH ONES SOUL., FEW HOMIES DETACHED THEMSELVES FROM REALITY., IN FACT, THEY STAYED REAL., A SAGRADO CORAZON ON THEIR CHEST., A CRUZ ON THER HAND WEB., A TEAR FOR THE PAINS., LA CHUYITAS NAME ON THEIR ARM., OR A PRIMER AMOR., MAYBE THE VARRIO INITIALS INKED ON THE ARMS, LA ESPALDA OR THE STOMAGO., I GOT A GLIMPSE WHEN IT ALL STARTED TO GET A LITTLE BIT HEAVIER WITH THE HOMIES THROWING UP THE VARRIO ON THEIR NECKS TO SHOW HOW DEDICATED THEY WERE., I MISSED IT WHEN THEY DECIDED TO GO SALVATRUCHA AND INK UP THEIR FACES, THEIR DOMES AND EVEN THEIR JETAS., THE SOUL LEFT THOSE HOMIES., IT ALL BECAME GANG Y NOMAS! NO HISTORY CRAVED., NO NOSTALGIA TO FEED THE SOUL., NO HOLDING BACK TO KEEP THINGS IN BALANCE., JUST ALL OUT CRAZY GANG STAMPS., TOO MUCH SO, THAT IT FORGOT., IT FORGOT WHAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT., WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GETTING ALONG AND REPRESENTING A STYLE., A STILO DE VIDA, CRAZY BUT MELLOW, REMINISCENT OF THE FAMILIA WAYS., THE WAYS OF OUR ANCESTROS, WHO DUKED IT OU, BUT THEY KEPT IT LEVEL HEADED., DEVOID OF ANY MADNESS., FOR IT WAS ONE THING TO BE A WARRIOR., ONE THING TO BE A VATO LOCO., AND IT IS A WHOLE NOTHER THING TO BE TODO CYCO., INMERSED IN THE LOCURA! THAT'S HOW ISEE THE ARTE COMING OUT OF THE HOMEBOYS, THESE TIEMPOS., SO I WONDER, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS DUE TO COINTELPRO!?
SANTOS wrote:
But thats what I was sayin about it coming from todos lados.
And this whole Azteca thing is part of it.
So many layers involved.
So many things figure in.
And sometimes its not just the govt cointelpro side of things, but other factors.
Like the B&Cs or the Maras or the skaters thoughout the past 40 years.
I see them as infiltrators too holmes. ...and just as bad if not worse than cointelpro.
Coming in and ripping our chet, taking our beautiful cultura and poisoning it.
Showing no respect for where they took it from.
That in itself set off a chain reaction in the calles that I saw with my own eyes. And it filtered right back down to us, till we ourselves started imitating the chet that was OTHER people's interpretation.
I believe that is because apart from our personal varrio histories,.. we mostly didnt see the big picture of what we were really a part of.
And in that, our cultura itself wasnt being protected.
We didnt have no leaders in the community looking out for us and our history.
To understand us.
To fight for us.
Y saves que? We STILL dont.
Aint no voice for the varrios. No voice for our heritage, for who we are and where we come from.
Nobody cares about us.
Only when people are looking to cash in or use it for their own pinchi agendas.
It is in this kind of environment that eventually things go off course from the essence.:.
Lonewolf wrote:Anybody here ever read the book ~> Hitler and the Occult?
Besides the "occult roots of Nazism," it also spells out how to capture the hearts and minds through imagery, colors, symbols, uniforms, vocabulary, codes of conduct, insignia, attitude, discipline, lore; in other words, psychological appeal, distinctiveness, visual effects, tacas/art, demeanor, cleanliness, history, certain speech, etc, etc, etc.
former gangster wrote:this whole topic is pretty deep, one thing i can bring up is also notice other razas or groups having similar connections to mythical or legendary pasts, like the white supremacists or aryans have either viking or celtic past or mix of both,
the negritos have the swahili or other african connections, and movements claiming other historical figures were really black, like ancient egyptians and even jesus,
the chinos harken back to ancient empires in asia depending where they’re from like japan china or angor wat.
the mexicans have nahuatl and the aztec past.
the italians in their own way always reference the roman empire days, which i think they kinda lost the cred to claim those glory days because they were pretty ghetto for like the last 500 years at least,
but either way maybe narrowing down to blacks and raza, the black power movement and the chicano movement, i know they either interplayed off each other or copied some ideas off each other, from what i understand alot of nationalist groups around the world bounced ideology off each other, let’s just say none of it happened in a vacuum,
on the aztec thing and mexico, yeah its pretty obvious the government was trying to brain wash the masses, also i would say through soccer, why did mexico put so much into its soccer program, especially looking at the level that mexico had in the world of soccer, it was on the low rungs, mexico i would say was a country that was naturally leaning towards baseball, and the chicanada in a way i would say was really leaning towards baseball,
either way there’s a lot to confuse the issue, but i think the communist propaganda machine, and marxists groups played into it a lot, there’s definitely some conspiracies there though
