King Tut controversy.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Great analogy Ancient Tribes of America. By you're thinking then King Tut was also white.

[img]http://img119.echo.cx/img119/5057/kingtut13yr.jpg[/img]

[Dr. Gonzo]

I found this which is quite interesting.

http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/black_eg ... iginal.htm

[img]http://www.stewartsynopsis.com/q_file2.jpg[/img]
Narmer (Menes) The 1st Pharaoh of Egypt

That proves my point. The bible was written after Christ died. The ancient Egyptians were around before Christ you know B.C.

The only thing that proves is that their were Egyptians of Nubian ancestry which, I already stated here.

[never die inside]

Great analagy Ancient Tribes of America. By you're thinking then King Tut was also white.

Dood. Come on. Thats made of ivory. It was left alone to be an ivory statue on purpose.


[img]http://www.catchpenny.org/images/tut2.gif[/img]

This artifact was actually painted to be much more lifelike.
Thats like saying color didn't exist in the 1920's cus all the movies had no color. It was just made that way.

This artifact that was painted to be more lifelike shows he is Black.

[Dr. Gonzo]

This artifact was actually painted to be much more lifelike.
Thats like saying color didn't exist in the 1920's cus all the movies had no color. It was just made that way.

The artifact that was painted to be more lifelike says he is Black.

Really?

Where is the source of the story that says that he was painted black because King Tut was black?

[never die inside]

This artifact was actually painted to be much more lifelike.
Thats like saying color didn't exist in the 1920's cus all the movies had no color. It was just made that way.

The artifact that was painted to be more lifelike says he is Black.

Really?

Where is the source of the story that says that he was painted black because King Tut was black?

This is the best artifact there is. Its really up to you to find a better more accurate artifact that says otherwise.

Lineage isn't based on science. Its based on tradition, customs and history. Science is used to support archaelogical and tribal custom findings. If there is no scientific evidence to prove or disprove anything, then archaeological evidence is pretty much what you have to look at.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Once again you have zero proof to you're statements.

Ok, I will give you proof and provide you with a link to show that you are completely wrong Ancient Tribes of America. But, I'm sure you will make up some excuse to say you are right.

Anyways read the quote below.

The statues, of refined craftsmanship and striking in both their life-size dimensions and the black finish of the skin, are testimony to the skill of the artist who has succeeded in investing their features with a sense of the almost supernatural power they wielded as guardians of the burial chamber. Rather than being designed to frighten eventual intruders, the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

http://www.crystalinks.com/tutstomb.html

[never die inside]

Once again you have zero proof to you're statements.

Ok, I will give you proof and provide you with a link to show that you are completely wrong Ancient Tribes of America. But, I'm sure you will make up some excuse to say you are right.

Anyways read the quote below.

The statues, of refined craftsmanship and striking in both their life-size dimensions and the black finish of the skin, are testimony to the skill of the artist who has succeeded in investing their features with a sense of the almost supernatural power they wielded as guardians of the burial chamber. Rather than being designed to frighten eventual intruders, the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

http://www.crystalinks.com/tutstomb.html

dood. Africans believed that Black was the color of good. Cus they were all Black. Its natural to mystify one's skin color as part of your native history. All cultures do it. Not because its the color of the earth. Sheesh.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Once again you have zero proof to you're statements.

Ok, I will give you proof and provide you with a link to show that you are completely wrong Ancient Tribes of America. But, I'm sure you will make up some excuse to say you are right.

Anyways read the quote below.

The statues, of refined craftsmanship and striking in both their life-size dimensions and the black finish of the skin, are testimony to the skill of the artist who has succeeded in investing their features with a sense of the almost supernatural power they wielded as guardians of the burial chamber. Rather than being designed to frighten eventual intruders, the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

http://www.crystalinks.com/tutstomb.html

dood. Africans believed that Black was the color of good. Cus they were all Black. Not because its the color of the earth. Sheesh.

Then why the hell would ancient Egyptians think differently from you?

Oh let me guess they must be wrong just because you believe differently.

[never die inside]

Then why the hell would ancient Egyptians think differently from you?

Oh let me guess they must be wrong just because you believe differently.

Listen. They made the bust white looking for money. More people will come and pay money. Yeah wutever.

But you can't buy history. History is still legitimate. Its still real. History doesn't change because some guy wanted to make money.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Then why the hell would ancient Egyptians think differently from you?

Oh let me guess they must be wrong just because you believe differently.

Listen. They made the bust white looking for money. More people will come and pay money. Yeah wutever.

But you can't buy history. History is still legitimate. Its still real. History doesn't change because some guy wanted to make money.

First of all the King Tut bust looks arab or persian not "white".

And you are right you can't change history and you can't also change the fact that King Tut was not black or white.

[never die inside]

Then why the hell would ancient Egyptians think differently from you?

Oh let me guess they must be wrong just because you believe differently.

Listen. They made the bust white looking for money. More people will come and pay money. Yeah wutever.

But you can't buy history. History is still legitimate. Its still real. History doesn't change because some guy wanted to make money.

First of all the King Tut bust looks arab or persian not "white".

And you are right you can't change history and you can't also change the fact that King Tut was not black or white.

The lineage of Egytian Kings were clearly African.

Look at this guy! From your own link!

[img]http://www.crystalinks.com/tutka.gif[/img]

Even the greek writer Herodotus said Egyptians were Black. Where is the evidence that all of a sudden, Egyptian kings weren't Black?

Do u see any Black presidents in the US? If you think that every society has a leader who is the "middle shade" of its citizens, then the next 50 presidents of the USA should be Black, Asian or Mexican just to balance out the white presidents.

[Dr. Gonzo]

What part of Herodotus seeing Egyptians when Egypt had been already been conquered by the Nubians from the south of Egypt do you not understand?

And didn't, I mention already why the Ancient Egyptians were painted black?

the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

If you are going to use my links atleast read what the hell it says.

[never die inside]

What part of Herodotus seeing Egyptians when Egypt had been already been conqured by the Nubians from the south of Egypt do you not understand?

And didn't, I mention already why the Ancient Egyptians were painted black?

the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

Of course to Africans, Black was considered to be a symbol of life and vitality. Duh... they're black.

And there is no evidence that they weren't black before Nubians came. Of course they were still black. Even Ethiopians are considered Hamitic.

All the archaelogical evidence says they are black. Just show me one solid 100% piece of evidence that shows ancient Egyptians weren't Black and there is a better artifact that this one here.

[img]http://www.catchpenny.org/images/tut2.gif[/img]

[Dr. Gonzo]

What part of Herodotus seeing Egyptians when Egypt had been already been conqured by the Nubians from the south of Egypt do you not understand?

And didn't, I mention already why the Ancient Egyptians were painted black?

the black skin tone was a reference to the earth and thus, given that these are ka images of the sovereign, emphasizes indestructibility of the creative nature of the king, evoking the aspects of rebirth and cyclical resurrection of Osiris.

And there is no evidence that they weren't black before Nubians came. Of course they were still black. Even Ethiopians are considered Hamitic.

All the archaelogical evidence says they are black. Just show me one solid 100% piece of evidence that shows ancient Egyptians weren't Black.

The people from Ham were also "white".

And if the Egyptians were black before before the Nubians invaded them, Why the hell then would ancient Egyptians use Henna to darken their skin?

If they were black why would they use Henna on their skin and hair?

They wouldn't need to right? Their skin was already dark according to you.

[Dr. Gonzo]

"All the archaelogical evidence says they are black".

What archaelogical evidence?

You have yet to show any.

[never die inside]

The people from Ham were also "white".

And if the Egyptians were black before before the Nubians invaded them, Why the hell then would ancient Egyptians use Henna to darken their skin?

If they were black why would they use Henna on their skin and hair?

They wouldn't need to right? Their skin was already dark according to you.

If they covered the man made Bust of King Tut with Henna, then I wouldn't really complain. They should follow ancient Egyptian customs out of respect.

[Dr. Gonzo]

The people from Ham were also "white".

And if the Egyptians were black before before the Nubians invaded them, Why the hell then would ancient Egyptians use Henna to darken their skin?

If they were black why would they use Henna on their skin and hair?

They wouldn't need to right? Their skin was already dark according to you.

If they covered the man made Bust of King Tut with Henna, then I wouldn't really complain. They should follow ancient Egyptian customs out of respect.

Why are you dodging the question?

Why did ancient Egyptians use Henna to darken their skin if they were always black like you say they were?

[willihen]

I thought we were done with this.

Not black Not white.

lets simplify.

Nubians = Black with mixture of Arabic features (Not sub saharan)
Eygptians = Arabic with mixture of Med. caucasian some mixed with Nubian

[willihen]

check it out

Why the caucasian features on the drawings and sculptures if they
were all black.

[Anonymous20]

Well personally I thought that bust of Menes, said to be the first pharaoh, has many black characteristics, the nose and lips.

[Dr. Gonzo]

check it out

Why the caucasian features on the drawings and sculptures if they
were all black.

Have you not been reading the replies of Ancient Tribes of America?

No matter how much you prove that for the most part Ancient Egyptians were NOT black he keeps on insisting they were.

It's starting to get pathetic. All he is doing is going by his own thoughts and opinions instead of actual facts.

[willihen]

I'm with you on this

[Dr. Gonzo]

Well personally I thought that bust of Menes, said to be the first pharaoh, has many black characteristics, the nose and lips.

An Olmec statue also has black features like the nose and lips.

Does that mean he was black aswell?

[img]http://img269.echo.cx/img269/2460/olmec8ds.jpg[/img]

[willihen]

check it out

Why the caucasian features on the drawings and sculptures if they
were all black.

Have you not been reading the replies of Ancient Tribes of America?

No matter how much you prove that for the most part Ancient Egyptians were NOT black he keeps on insisting they were.

It's starting to get pathetic. All he is doing is going by his own thoughts and opinions instead of actual facts.

As Technology advances Scientists become better equipt and understand more.
Lets look at the bust on your first post. Thats more accurate than anything posted by Ancient tribes.
So lets just say....Any questions, check out the bust by the Frog Scientist

[Anonymous20]

Hey check this out. All types of people are on those drawings haha

http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html

But about race it is hard to completely define a skin color or certain people once again in a little box, it just doesn't exist. People are gonna try finding new and new characteristics (or boundaries) to try n categorize but it doesnt go that way, it's never gonna end. Like I said, I don't believe skin color was an issue back then and they were all over it like this is going. There were black, persian, meds, whatever you wanna name it mixing and since Egypy was a big empire I think it's natural other people often went there for merchandising and all, like a crossroad of neighbouring peoples. These discussions always come out like this. And some people go even as far to think that just coz theire skin color ressembles, they can relate to the culture and egyptian heritage, that's BS.

[Cold Bear]

IN RESPONSE TO THE OLMEC STATUE
yes probably partially of African descent. Just like there were findings of African descended groups in Thailand and many other points in Southeast Asia.

Also Gonzo, can you post proof that they were white? I know there are many light Egyptians. I know this lady who could pass for light Arabic who is Egyptian - very fair skinned, and yet her sons are brown and have African hair.

If Egypt is heavily populated by Blacks now, and when Herodotus wrote about, it was the same way... and the whole fact of it BEING IN AFRICA (use some common sense, fool), how much can it really be non-blacks populating it as a majority?

Your whole Henna argument is weak as hell. Just cause somebody is light-skinned doesn't make them not black, fool. Black people also tan. You're a dumb motherfucker if you're thinking, "They can't wear Henna cause it won't show up on their dark dark skin". Fool, that's like saying Blacks don't get tattoos cause it won't show up on them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Hey check this out. All types of people are on those drawings haha

http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html

But about race it is hard to completely define a skin color or certain people once again in a little box, it just doesn't exist. People are gonna try finding new and new characteristics (or boundaries) to try n categorize but it doesnt go that way, it's never gonna end. Like I said, I don't believe skin color was an issue back then and they were all over it like this is going. There were black, persian, meds, whatever you wanna name it mixing and since Egypy was a big empire I think it's natural other people often went there for merchandising and all, like a crossroad of neighbouring peoples. These discussions always come out like this. And some people go even as far to think that just coz theire skin color ressembles, they can relate to the culture and egyptian heritage, that's BS.

Of course the ancient Egyptians at one point were black they were conquered by the Nubians but that was near the end of ancient Egyptian civilization not beginning of their rule.

[willihen]

IN RESPONSE TO THE OLMEC STATUE
yes probably partially of African descent. Just like there were findings of African descended groups in Thailand and many other points in Southeast Asia.

Also Gonzo, can you post proof that they were white? I know there are many light Egyptians. I know this lady who could pass for light Arabic who is Egyptian - very fair skinned, and yet her sons are brown and have African hair.

If Egypt is heavily populated by Blacks now, and when Herodotus wrote about, it was the same way... and the whole fact of it BEING IN AFRICA (use some common sense, fool), how much can it really be non-blacks populating it as a majority?

Your whole Henna argument is weak as hell. Just cause somebody is light-skinned doesn't make them not black, fool. Black people also tan. You're a dumb motherfucker if you're thinking, "They can't wear Henna cause it won't show up on their dark dark skin". Fool, that's like saying Blacks don't get tattoos cause it won't show up on them.

Gonzo didn't say they were white.

[Cold Bear]

Well the question is who was populating that area before Nubians conquered it. You can say all you want that it was Arabs with more Caucasian influence, but to say they were not Black is saying they had no African blood, which is close to unbelievable.

[Anonymous20]

Hey check this out. All types of people are on those drawings haha

http://www.catchpenny.org/race.html

But about race it is hard to completely define a skin color or certain people once again in a little box, it just doesn't exist. People are gonna try finding new and new characteristics (or boundaries) to try n categorize but it doesnt go that way, it's never gonna end. Like I said, I don't believe skin color was an issue back then and they were all over it like this is going. There were black, persian, meds, whatever you wanna name it mixing and since Egypy was a big empire I think it's natural other people often went there for merchandising and all, like a crossroad of neighbouring peoples. These discussions always come out like this. And some people go even as far to think that just coz theire skin color ressembles, they can relate to the culture and egyptian heritage, that's BS.

Of course the ancient Egyptians at one point were black they were conquered by the Nubians but that was near the end of ancient Egyptian civilization not beginning of their rule.

I'm just saying this race issue is getting completely stupid. Who's black, who's white, who's who, what color, just trying to define imaginary boundaries right there you know you can't get to the bottom of this. The egyptians didn't even believe in skin color and their society reflected that, the paintings and all, the colors, it mainly revolved around nationality, not with this stupid concept of 'race' which doesnt even exist.

---------------
This said, we might ask, "What color were the ancient Egyptians?" Being on the continent, Egypt has always been an African civilization though it straddles two regions, Africa and the Middle East. It's fairly clear that the cultural roots of ancient Egypt lie in Africa and not in Asia. Egypt was a subtropical desert environment and its people had migrated from various ethnic groups over its history (and prehistory), thus it was something of a "melting pot," a mixture of many types of people with many skin tones, some certainly from the Sub-Saharan regions and others from more Mediterranean climes. It is impossible to categorize these people into the tidy "black" and "white" terms of today's racial distinctions. The Egyptians are better classified using evidence of their language and their material cultures, historical records, and their physical remains because so-called "racial" identification has been elusive, much for the reasons cited above. Skulls have been measured and compared and DNA tests attempted in various forms, but conclusions are few. Skulls are more similar to those found in the Northern Sudan and less similar to those found in West Africa, Palestine, and Turkey. It seems that there has been some genetic continuity from Predynastic time through the Middle Kingdom, after which there was a considerable infiltration into the Nile Valley from outside populations. That the Egyptians by and large were dark is certain, and many must have been what we today call "black."
It is apparent that the ancient Egyptians did not make racial distinctions themselves, but rather ethnic distinctions based on nationality. Tomb paintings depicting captive Nubians may show them as being very dark, but this is an artistic convention stereotyping a nationality, and to conclude there were therefore no very dark Egyptians would be a non sequitur. Similarly, the skin tones in art depicting the Egyptians themselves adhere to convention rather than an absolutely accurate description of reality. Tutankhamun is variously shown as being black as in the guardian statues found in his tomb, and brown or beige as in the lotus bust (see photos above).

There has been a spate of controversy of late between "Afrocentric" authors and their critics, but the truth is that Egyptologists are not involved in some massive conspiracy of lies designed to subjugate black populations, as has often been charged. Indeed, most modern Egyptologists are rather taciturn when it comes to the subject of race. Nor have the black Africans been "robbed" of their legacy. Civilization as it exists today is the culmination of the historical development of mankind, layer upon layer from ancient times to modern, each group contributing its share to the whole. Through human interaction, whether by trade or warfare, ideas, reform, and invention are assimilated, adapted, and again dispersed. It's the nature of history regardless of ethnicity. To make petty and arbitrary distinctions based on human physical appearance is divisive and can only lead to wanton racist misuse. No good can come of it beyond establishing immediate and limited familial ties; beyond this the discussion of race has no place in science. We can safely conclude that the ancient Egyptians were of various skin colors, few of which were light judging by the climate.



The bottom line, is egyptians were a mixed people (like everybody is deep down, but with characteristics of the neighbouring people), not 'black', not 'persian' or whichever other fuckin name you wanna call it just to make racist divisions. I don't understand this whole thing about race man, if the egyptians themselves didn't go by race (they went by nationality, religion) and that we're talking about them, why are we trying to apply race and skin color to their civilization?

[Dr. Gonzo]

IN RESPONSE TO THE OLMEC STATUE
yes probably partially of African descent. Just like there were findings of African descended groups in Thailand and many other points in Southeast Asia.

Also Gonzo, can you post proof that they were white? I know there are many light Egyptians. I know this lady who could pass for light Arabic who is Egyptian - very fair skinned, and yet her sons are brown and have African hair.

If Egypt is heavily populated by Blacks now, and when Herodotus wrote about, it was the same way... and the whole fact of it BEING IN AFRICA (use some common sense, fool), how much can it really be non-blacks populating it as a majority?

Your whole Henna argument is weak as hell. Just cause somebody is light-skinned doesn't make them not black, fool. Black people also tan. You're a dumb motherfucker if you're thinking, "They can't wear Henna cause it won't show up on their dark dark skin". Fool, that's like saying Blacks don't get tattoos cause it won't show up on them.

Second when the hell did, I say ancient Egyptians were white?

Concerning Henna just because someone is light-skinned it could also mean their non black. You're argument works both ways.

And as for you're retarded Olmec statement "yes probably partially of African descent". their has been zero proof found that they were black. If you're going to make stupid statements like that why not provide proof you idiot.

[Cold Bear]

You're the one not providing proof. Egypt is IN AFRICA, you slow ass. Light or not, Egyptians always had 'black blood'. just like Sicilians also have black blood. Don't be mad because the argument you made about Henna is weak as fuck fool.

Also, why would Olmecs build statues that are NOT in their own image?