Strongest Criminal Organisation in Europe.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 14th, 2008, 6:18 pm

State who you think is the strongest criminal organisation in Europe AND WHY.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 14th, 2008, 6:23 pm

go ahead westside im waiting for you.

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 14th, 2008, 8:31 pm

There are two groups that could lay claim to being the most powerful criminal organization in Europe - the Italians in Western Europe and the Russians in Eastern Europe. However, if I had to choose one with respect to Europe in general, I would have to say the four syndicates that together make up the Italian Mafia - Cosa Nostra (Sicily), 'Ndrangheta (Calabria), Camorra (Campania), Sacra Corona Unita (Puglia) - are the most powerful. Together they are composed of roughly 540 clans made up of 21,000 members. They do not fight each other. Rather, they cooperate together, dividing up territory and operations, sometimes almost acting as one. The Sacra Corona Unita is an offshoot of the 'Ndrangheta and Camorra just as they are an offshoot of the Cosa Nostra. The members of these organizations share the same criminal tradition and codes that go far back in history. Italian Mafia clans are well organized, tight knit, secretive, and ruthless.

The Italians are the most entrenched, having been active on a major scale in Europe far longer than any other group. They operate in more European countries than any other group. The Italians have the most diversified and sophisticated operations. They are involved in virtually every conceivable organized crime activity - drug trafficking, arms trafficking, human smuggling, extortion, money laundering, illegal gambling, loansharking, prostitution, pornography, fraud, auto theft, cigarette smuggling, toxic waste dumping, computer crime, counterfeiting, labor racketeering, infiltration of legitimate businesses, political corruption, assault, kidnapping, and murder. The Mafia is active in just about every facet of the legitimate economy in Italy, from factories to tourism to business to banking to farming to real estate, etc. In fact, authorities estimate that the Mafia makes up 7% of Italy's GDP. Depending on the region, 50% to 80% of all Italian businesses pay the Mafia. As it always has been, the Mafia is also very entrenched in politics in the country. Only the Russians are as deeply embedded within the social, economic, and political fabric of their country as the Italians are in their's.

In addition to it's own operations, the Italian Mafia often advises, finances and directs the operations of other groups, as well as launders the money for them. The Italians have connections in Europe and around the globe that other groups do not. The Italians have more connections and work with other groups more than any other organization. In addition to controlling 80% of Europe's coaine trade, the Italians are also involved in a good portion of the heroin trade, as they have key links with Turkish traffickers and the Albanian groups that move 80% of Europe's heroin through the Balkans. Furthermore, the Italian Mafia is one of the few organizations that can move both heroin and cocaine on an international scale, often acting as a broker for other groups, such as the Columbians, Russians, and Chinese. Indeed, it is one of the few organizations that could be said to be global in scope. But it's powerbase has always been and will always be Europe.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 25th, 2008, 4:02 pm

yeah your an idiot westside your just an idiot. all your information and date in that small brain of yours is about italians. you dont know shit about any other criminals groups except the russians and you dont even know about them, its just you see them in some movies and assume they are allmighty and powerful.

Unread post by **Word** » March 25th, 2008, 5:13 pm

westside, do you post on realdeal forum?

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 25th, 2008, 5:45 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:yeah your an idiot westside your just an idiot. all your information and date in that small brain of yours is about italians. you dont know shit about any other criminals groups except the russians and you dont even know about them, its just you see them in some movies and assume they are allmighty and powerful.

I'd say the criminal groups I've studied the most are the Italians. But I've also studied the Russians, the Colombians, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Japanese, and yes, even the Albanians.

I've never said the Italians are "almighty and all-powerful." You asked which group I thought was the most powerful in Europe and I answered your question. Don't get mad just because it wasn't the answer you want to hear.

Word wrote:westside, do you post on realdeal forum?

Yes.

Unread post by **TeeKay** » March 25th, 2008, 10:31 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:yeah your an idiot westside your just an idiot. all your information and date in that small brain of yours is about italians. you dont know shit about any other criminals groups except the russians and you dont even know about them, its just you see them in some movies and assume they are allmighty and powerful.

Someone's catching feelings

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 26th, 2008, 5:09 pm

Someone's catching feelings

[/quote]

and here comes westsides bitch, teekay, coming around for his daily blowjob... teekay do you need to come and back up westside on everything? just chill down... what are you guys just out of curiosity? you and westside.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 26th, 2008, 5:13 pm

I'd say the criminal groups I've studied the most are the Italians. But I've also studied the Russians, the Colombians, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Japanese, and yes, even the Albanians.

no you havent studied the albanians, the only information you study is civpool.org or w.e it is that talk about balkan organised crime...

1: the albanians are the strongest heroin dealers in europe by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
2: one of the main suppliers of cocaine
3: the most violent gangsters in the world of 2008. period.
4: will supply anyone with any kind of arm anytime for the lowest price, theyre pretty much the walmart of guns. and yes even before the russians.
5: ar very organised and entrenched, they deal with american politics and even deal with presidents (america included) (bill clinton for example).

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 26th, 2008, 5:23 pm

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007 ... lions.html

Unread post by **Azure9920** » March 26th, 2008, 5:30 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:I'd say the criminal groups I've studied the most are the Italians. But I've also studied the Russians, the Colombians, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Japanese, and yes, even the Albanians.

no you havent studied the albanians, the only information you study is civpool.org or w.e it is that talk about balkan organised crime...

1: the albanians are the strongest heroin dealers in europe by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
2: one of the main suppliers of cocaine
3: the most violent gangsters in the world of 2008. period.
4: will supply anyone with any kind of arm anytime for the lowest price, theyre pretty much the walmart of guns. and yes even before the russians.
5: ar very organised and entrenched, they deal with american politics and even deal with presidents (america included) (bill clinton for example).

Sorry to break it to you, but the United States is the largest supplier of small arms worldwide, and it'll be a cold day in hell when the Albanians pass them.

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 26th, 2008, 9:03 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:and here comes westsides bitch, teekay, coming around for his daily blowjob... teekay do you need to come and back up westside on everything? just chill down... what are you guys just out of curiosity? you and westside.

As your above post shows, if anyone needs to "chill down," it's you. What do you mean what are we? Are you referring to ethnic background?

no you havent studied the albanians, the only information you study is civpool.org or w.e it is that talk about balkan organised crime...

You really have no idea what I have or haven't studied. If anyone hasn't done their homework, it's you. You start arguments with unsourced articles, Wikipedia, and some "Mafia nut" you know as your frame of reference. Then you go into a tissy fit throwing out personal insults when somebody questions your assertions, or God forbid, says you are wrong. I supplied you with an entire list of official reputable sources on Albanian organized crime, which I've already read, although I'm sure you have yet to.

1: the albanians are the strongest heroin dealers in europe by farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

True. Approximately 80% of the heroin destined for Europe is smuggled through the Balkan routes, which are mainly controlled by Albanian groups.

2: one of the main suppliers of cocaine

There is really only one "main supplier" of cocaine to Europe - the Italian 'Ndrangheta, which controls about 80%. The remaining 20% is supplied by a number of groups, including Albanians, Colombians, Nigerians, etc.

3: the most violent gangsters in the world of 2008. period.

I don't think there is any real way to quantify who is "the most violent." All organized crime groups are capable of and routinely use violence.

4: will supply anyone with any kind of arm anytime for the lowest price, theyre pretty much the walmart of guns. and yes even before the russians.

Do the Albanians sell arms the cheapest? Perhaps. But they are not bigger arms dealers than the Russians. The Russians are the biggest worldwide.

5: ar very organised and entrenched, they deal with american politics and even deal with presidents (america included) (bill clinton for example).

Yes, they are very organized and entrenched in Europe. However, that doesn't mean they are the most powerful.

Azure9920 wrote:Sorry to break it to you, but the United States is the largest supplier of small arms worldwide, and it'll be a cold day in hell when the Albanians pass them.

I think Johnny Red was referring to strictly black market sales.

Unread post by **flame_guards_member1** » March 26th, 2008, 9:37 pm

Westside, where did you get that map? If it's the Real Deal forum, tell me which thread. Are there more like it? As for that post, very informative. I love reading your posts, man. Good job. Keep it up.

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 26th, 2008, 9:48 pm

flame_guards_member1 wrote:Westside, where did you get that map? If it's the Real Deal forum, tell me which thread. Are there more like it? As for that post, very informative. I love reading your posts, man. Good job. Keep it up.

Check out the International Crime Threat Assessment (link below). It's from 2000 but still one of the best reports on international organized crime. It has a number of maps and charts. The subheading entitled "Worldwide Areas of International Criminal Activity" is very informative.

http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/htm ... index.html

Unread post by **TeeKay** » March 27th, 2008, 6:26 am

JohnnyRed wrote:Someone's catching feelings

and here comes westsides bitch, teekay, coming around for his daily blowjob... teekay do you need to come and back up westside on everything? just chill down... what are you guys just out of curiosity? you and westside.[/quote]

Calm down,ive been here before westside was posting in the organised crime forum dont start on groupie shit as you and the other shipqeg or whatever guy was riding eachother posting wiki articles about rudaj.

But there you again goin on insults like your catching feelings, its pathetic.

Unread post by **TeeKay** » March 27th, 2008, 6:30 am

Westside you metioned 80% of the Cocaine was controlled by 'Ndrangheta, do there other italian OC groups have some part in its import and control?

Unread post by **TeeKay** » March 27th, 2008, 6:31 am

By the way JohnnyRed im not italian,maybe some down the line but not a full blood thats all you need.

Unread post by **united** » March 27th, 2008, 11:44 am

Polish gangs run the cocaine trade too

Unread post by **Azure9920** » March 27th, 2008, 3:18 pm

united wrote:Polish gangs run the cocaine trade too

Maybe in Poland, and even then I'd be willing to bet some form of Russian OC is bigger than Polish..not sure though.

Unread post by **Richboy17** » March 27th, 2008, 4:02 pm

Albanians arent above Russians in arms trade. Russians fuckin supply bombs worth 20 mil a piece. Theres a link on youtube about that how 2 Russians in the U.S sold a few things for millions of dollars. And the Turks are the ones who run the herion trade in Europe. Albanians might be close but they are not in the top.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 27th, 2008, 4:33 pm

Richboy17 wrote:Albanians arent above Russians in arms trade. Russians fuckin supply bombs worth 20 mil a piece. Theres a link on youtube about that how 2 Russians in the U.S sold a few things for millions of dollars. And the Turks are the ones who run the herion trade in Europe. Albanians might be close but they are not in the top.

ethnic Albanian crime groups appear to have largely replaced the Turks as the principal distributors of Southwest Asian heroin to parts of Western Europe, according to press reports. They are also challenging Italian criminal syndicates for control of other rackets in West European countries.

yeah dickhead the turks. that came from westsides thing not one of mine just incase you were wondering.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 27th, 2008, 4:35 pm

TeeKay wrote:Westside you metioned 80% of the Cocaine was controlled by 'Ndrangheta, do there other italian OC groups have some part in its import and control?

they dont CONTROL 80% of the cocaine in Europe, they import it and how it gets there varys, either by ONE of the italian groups (ndrangheta, LCN, Cammorra etc...) or Albanians on a smaller but still major scale (30-35%).

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 27th, 2008, 4:50 pm

True. Approximately 80% of the heroin destined for Europe is smuggled through the Balkan routes, which are mainly controlled by Albanian groups.

almost entirely***

There is really only one "main supplier" of cocaine to Europe - the Italian 'Ndrangheta, which controls about 80%. The remaining 20% is supplied by a number of groups, including Albanians, Colombians, Nigerians, etc.

false. they do not CONTROL 80% of cocaine, they import it. how it gets there varys. Either by ONE of the Italian groups (Ndrangheta, Camorra, etc...) but Ndrangheta mainly and the rest is imported by Albanians (30% give or take).

I don't think there is any real way to quantify who is "the most violent." All organized crime groups are capable of and routinely use violence..

Most violent in the way im talking about: First to use violence, use violence the most, goes to extreme lengths compared to other organisations.

4: will supply anyone with any kind of arm anytime for the lowest price, theyre pretty much the walmart of guns. and yes even before the russians.

Do the Albanians sell arms the cheapest? Perhaps. But they are not bigger arms dealers than the Russians. The Russians are the biggest worldwide.

Your right the Russians ARE the biggest arms dealers worldwide but this is Europe were talking about, and Europe without the west part of Russia, only the Real Europe. Any country that you go to, the people looking for guns will try to find an Albanian.

5: are very organised and entrenched, they deal with american politics and even deal with presidents (america included) (bill clinton for example).

Yes, they are very organized and entrenched in Europe. However, that doesn't mean they are the most powerful.

No one relly knows who the most powerful is, but The Albanians are one of them without a doubt, alongside the Italians and Russians. Those three are pretty much known as the most powerful in Europe by far. the others are pretty much considered 2nd rate compared to the three I mentioned.

Italians - Known for mafia, organisations and numbers, cocaine.
Russians - Known for ruthlessness, violence, sophisticated crimes.
Albanians - Known as the continents biggest drug dealers, (street and importers), very violent, wild and ideal guns sellers.

I think Johnny Red was referring to strictly black market sales.[/quote]

yeah i was. when it comes to legit guns, of course the US. but I was kinda talking about the blackmarket in Europe there Azure, understand what your reading before replying.

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 27th, 2008, 7:17 pm

TeeKay wrote:Westside you metioned 80% of the Cocaine was controlled by 'Ndrangheta, do there other italian OC groups have some part in its import and control?

After the Sicilian Mafia scaled back much of it's international drug trafficking operations, the 'Ndrangheta has seemed to gain a corner on the European cocaine market, often supplying the other Italian groups.

JohnnyRed wrote:ethnic Albanian crime groups appear to have largely replaced the Turks as the principal distributors of Southwest Asian heroin to parts of Western Europe, according to press reports. They are also challenging Italian criminal syndicates for control of other rackets in West European countries.

yeah dickhead the turks. that came from westsides thing not one of mine just incase you were wondering.

The majority of heroin destined for Europe comes from the area in the Middle East known as the Golden Crescent - Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan. Turkish traffickers have been the middlemen in the heroin trade for decades and remain so to this day. Most of the opium is processed into heroin in Turkey and than sold to the Albanians, the Italians, or whoever else is buying it to smuggle into Europe.

they dont CONTROL 80% of the cocaine in Europe, they import it and how it gets there varys, either by ONE of the italian groups (ndrangheta, LCN, Cammorra etc...) or Albanians on a smaller but still major scale (30-35%).

false. they do not CONTROL 80% of cocaine, they import it. how it gets there varys. Either by ONE of the Italian groups (Ndrangheta, Camorra, etc...) but Ndrangheta mainly and the rest is imported by Albanians (30% give or take).

The Italians "control" 80% of the cocaine trade in Europe the same way Albanians "control" 80% of the heroin trade in Europe - 80% of each drug is smuggled into Europe by these groups. The Albanians get their heroin supply from Turkish (sometimes Italian) traffickers and then control the smuggling and distribution at the upper wholesale level into Europe. The Italians get their supply direct from the Colombians and then control the smuggling and distribution at the upper wholesale level into Europe.

Albanians do not import 30-35% of cocaine into Europe. 80% is imported by the Italians. Simple mathematics shows that leaves 20%, which as I've said, is divided up between a number of groups, including Albanians, Colombians, Nigerians, etc.

Your right the Russians ARE the biggest arms dealers worldwide but this is Europe were talking about, and Europe without the west part of Russia, only the Real Europe. Any country that you go to, the people looking for guns will try to find an Albanian.

By definition, "worldwide" includes Europe. The Russians are also the biggest arms traffickers in Europe.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 29th, 2008, 6:13 pm

The Italians "control" 80% of the cocaine trade in Europe the same way Albanians "control" 80% of the heroin trade in Europe - 80% of each drug is smuggled into Europe by these groups. The Albanians get their heroin supply from Turkish (sometimes Italian) traffickers and then control the smuggling and distribution at the upper wholesale level into Europe. The Italians get their supply direct from the Colombians and then control the smuggling and distribution at the upper wholesale level into Europe.

Albanians do not import 30-35% of cocaine into Europe. 80% is imported by the Italians. Simple mathematics shows that leaves 20%, which as I've said, is divided up between a number of groups, including Albanians, Colombians, Nigerians, etc.

1: Drugs are the most profitable crime in organised crime. In fact drugs are the most profitable business in the world period. If Albanians control 80% of heroin in a continent of 600,000,000 people I think it is and Italians control 80% of the cocaine. Where do the Russians come in as more powerful than the Albanians. The Albanians are much more powerful than the Italians but the only reason, the Italians remain one of the most powerful alongside the Albanians is because they operate in Italy. and MOST of them operate in Italy. So they seem large in numbers and powerful because they operate in Italy with no competition besides themselves. And even in Italy the Albanians are challenging the Italians and moving in on operations of theres. where the population is ovr 90% Italian, the Albanians are challenging the Italians imagine whats going on outside of Italy in cities and countries where Albanians are that much behind Italians in population. Vlore for example is an Albanian city in South Albania to be exact. 10% of the population work in the drug trade. thats 12,400 people. Now the news can come in and say the Vlore mafia is at an estimated 12,400 members. which may I remind is bigger in numbers than the ALMIGHTY NDRANGHETA WHOSE POWER IS ONLY COMAPARABLE TO GOD HIMSELF. So now you got 12,400 Albanians working in the drug trade in one city alone. I been to that city, I would give it another 10% are robbers. but anyway thats not important. back to my point, you got 12,400 people working in drugs in one city of 124,000. now Ndrangheta is what? 5000 members. so is the Vlore Mafia bigger than Ndrangheta lol. Maybe they would be if Albania wasent such a ruined country. This is why the Albanian mafia is like a bear to a dog compared to the Italian mafia. we are bigger (by that I mena in terms of numbers of criminals). We are just as wealthy because we supply just as much drugs all over Europe as they do.

2: which drug do you think makes more money? Heroin or Cocaine. Im not saying Heroin does, Im actually asking. You think Cocaine or Heroin makes more money in Europe entirely.

By definition, "worldwide" includes Europe. The Russians are also the biggest arms traffickers in Europe.

Right but in the Europe part of the world. Albanians are bigger arms traffickers then the Russians, everywhere else except for some cities in America I would give to the Russians.

JohnnyRed · Unread post by **JohnnyRed** » March 29th, 2008, 6:30 pm

The fares’ success illustrates the extent to which the state has slipped
into ungovernability. An estimated 10 percent or more of Vlore’s population
is involved, either directly or indirectly, in smuggling. Individual operators
can realize $13,000 from a good night’s haul, whereas criminal gangs can
generate $400,000. The growing number of expensive Italian and German
cars in Albania are signs of a thriving smuggling industry, and a recent report
by investigative journalist Frank Viviano reveals that two-thirds of the
cars on the streets of Vlore and Durres are stolen.

400,000 a night. Thats no joke.

In recent years passage through the Balkans into Europe has grossly overshadowed
previous drug channels from Southeast Asia’s Golden Triangle.
This principal drug-shipping channel, known as the Balkan Route, is worth
an estimated $400 billion a year and handles 80 percent of the heroin destined
for sale in Europe.

Now we control that route. Even you said that westside. So whats 80% of 400,000,000,000?

Already in the Turin region, according
to Italian authorities, the Albanians supplanted all of the other foreign
criminal groups—from Nigerians to Moroccans—that had been operating in
the area. The Albanians and the Italians simultaneously have a symbiotic
and competitive relationship. The fares take business from the mafia, but
they also provide invaluable services. Despite this bifurcated existence, the
Italians fear that the fares will use the exodus of refugees as a means of staking
out an even larger sphere of influence in southern Italy. A British Home
Office report warns that the Albanian clans are exceptionally vicious and
“make the Italian Mafia look like a whist drive.”

Frank J. Cilluffo is deputy director of the Global Organized Crime program at the
Center for Strategic & International Studies, where he directs seven multi-agency task
forces on transnational crime and terrorism. George Salmoiraghi is a research analyst
for the program.

Copyright © 1999 by The Center for Strategic and International Studies and the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
The Washington Quarterly • 22:4 pp. 21–25.

http://www.twq.com/autumn99/224Cilluffo.pdf

Unread post by **TeeKay** » March 29th, 2008, 7:26 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:The fares’ success illustrates the extent to which the state has slipped
into ungovernability. An estimated 10 percent or more of Vlore’s population
is involved, either directly or indirectly, in smuggling. Individual operators
can realize $13,000 from a good night’s haul, whereas criminal gangs can
generate $400,000. The growing number of expensive Italian and German
cars in Albania are signs of a thriving smuggling industry, and a recent report
by investigative journalist Frank Viviano reveals that two-thirds of the
cars on the streets of Vlore and Durres are stolen.

400,000 a night. Thats no joke.

In recent years passage through the Balkans into Europe has grossly overshadowed
previous drug channels from Southeast Asia’s Golden Triangle.
This principal drug-shipping channel, known as the Balkan Route, is worth
an estimated $400 billion a year and handles 80 percent of the heroin destined
for sale in Europe.

Now we control that route. Even you said that westside. So whats 80% of 400,000,000,000?

Already in the Turin region, according
to Italian authorities, the Albanians supplanted all of the other foreign
criminal groups—from Nigerians to Moroccans—that had been operating in
the area. The Albanians and the Italians simultaneously have a symbiotic
and competitive relationship. The fares take business from the mafia, but
they also provide invaluable services. Despite this bifurcated existence, the
Italians fear that the fares will use the exodus of refugees as a means of staking
out an even larger sphere of influence in southern Italy. A British Home
Office report warns that the Albanian clans are exceptionally vicious and
“make the Italian Mafia look like a whist drive.”

Frank J. Cilluffo is deputy director of the Global Organized Crime program at the
Center for Strategic & International Studies, where he directs seven multi-agency task
forces on transnational crime and terrorism. George Salmoiraghi is a research analyst
for the program.

Copyright © 1999 by The Center for Strategic and International Studies and the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
The Washington Quarterly • 22:4 pp. 21–25.

http://www.twq.com/autumn99/224Cilluffo.pdf

There You again Pumping Albanians saying your not that Bias,but its evident you are

Where are the sources and official reports for all these put up facts pumping albanians?

A British Home
Office report warns that the Albanian clans are exceptionally vicious and
“make the Italian Mafia look like a whist drive.”

Un-identified office (a british home office report) no official source,just a vague reference.Not credible.

Johnny You've been asked before but wont do it, post some Official articles instead of blogs written by anybodys and hyperbole articles.

Unread post by **Azure9920** » March 29th, 2008, 8:10 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:
yeah i was. when it comes to legit guns, of course the US. but I was kinda talking about the blackmarket in Europe there Azure, understand what your reading before replying.

No, I was actually speaking about illicit sales.

I'll try and keep it slow so you can figure out the big picture here. Hell, I'll even number it for you.

1- United States produces/aquires large amounts of small arms, ie handguns, semi automatics, etc.
2- They either use or sell said product.
2.1- If sold, it's been figured out that 1/4 of those find their way into the illicit arms black market.
3- Through Middlemen such as Sarkis Soghanalian, the US government supplies illicit arms sales on a level neither the Russians nor Albanians can touch.

End.

Unread post by **united** » March 29th, 2008, 9:28 pm

I will add Polish mob at 4 place

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 29th, 2008, 9:35 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:1: Drugs are the most profitable crime in organised crime. In fact drugs are the most profitable business in the world period. If Albanians control 80% of heroin in a continent of 600,000,000 people I think it is and Italians control 80% of the cocaine. Where do the Russians come in as more powerful than the Albanians.

The Russians operate on a global scale that matches the Italians, although their main powerbase is Russia and Eastern Europe. The Albanians operate mainly in Europe, with their main powerbase being the Balkans. In general, the scope and sophistication of the Russian's operations far exceed anything the Albanians have. And that includes narcotics if one is talking about world-wide operations. The Russians are bigger arms dealers than the Albanians, both in Europe as well as the rest of the world. And once again, on a world wide basis, the Russians have bigger human smuggling/prostitution operations than the Albanians. The Russians operate in more European countries than the Albanians do and have been doing so for much longer. While both the Russians and Albanians have considerable political clout in their respective countries, the political influence of the Russians is far more extensive. Russian organized crime groups control whole sectors of Russia's legitimate economy, which all of Albania is only a tiny fraction of. And, although I have said I've seen no estimations of the number of Albanians involved in organized crime, I venture to guess that the Russians are much greater in numbers due to their population size alone.

The Albanians are much more powerful than the Italians but the only reason, the Italians remain one of the most powerful alongside the Albanians is because they operate in Italy. and MOST of them operate in Italy. So they seem large in numbers and powerful because they operate in Italy with no competition besides themselves. And even in Italy the Albanians are challenging the Italians and moving in on operations of theres. where the population is ovr 90% Italian, the Albanians are challenging the Italians imagine whats going on outside of Italy in cities and countries where Albanians are that much behind Italians in population.

Everything that I said above about the Russians with respect to the Albanians I can say about the Italians. Like the Russians, the Italians operate on a global scale, although their main powerbase is Italy and Western Europe. The Italians narcotics operations exceed those of the Albanians, both in Europe and around the globe. I would venture to say the Albanians match the Italians in arms trafficking and human smuggling/prostitution operations, but only with respect to Europe, not as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Besides operating on every major continent of the globe (save Antartica of course), the Italians also operate in more European countries than any other group and have been doing so for the longest. The Italians have the most diversified and extensive operations of any criminal group in the world. Besides having considerable political influence in Italy, they have significant control or influence over virtually every area of Italy's legitimate economy, which again, Albania is only a tiny fraction of. And once again, due to population size alone, I would venture to guess the Italians are much larger than the Albanians in terms of numbers.

Vlore for example is an Albanian city in South Albania to be exact. 10% of the population work in the drug trade. thats 12,400 people. Now the news can come in and say the Vlore mafia is at an estimated 12,400 members. which may I remind is bigger in numbers than the ALMIGHTY NDRANGHETA WHOSE POWER IS ONLY COMAPARABLE TO GOD HIMSELF. So now you got 12,400 Albanians working in the drug trade in one city alone. I been to that city, I would give it another 10% are robbers. but anyway thats not important. back to my point, you got 12,400 people working in drugs in one city of 124,000. now Ndrangheta is what? 5000 members. so is the Vlore Mafia bigger than Ndrangheta lol. Maybe they would be if Albania wasent such a ruined country. This is why the Albanian mafia is like a bear to a dog compared to the Italian mafia. we are bigger (by that I mena in terms of numbers of criminals). We are just as wealthy because we supply just as much drugs all over Europe as they do.

Once again, you have just thrown out some numbers without any documentation backing them up. Please provide some proof if you have any.

As far as the Italians are concerned, here is the breakdown, with documentation I might add. The Camorra (Campania) has 150 clans and 7,000 members. The 'Ndrangheta (Calabria) has 160 clans with 6,000 members. The Cosa Nostra (Sicily) has 180 clans with 5,000 members. And the Sacra Corona Unita has 50 clans with 2,000 members. Together, they have a combined 540 clans and at least 20,000 members. Other estimates, included in the links below, range from 21,000 to 25,000 members. Both U.S. and Italian authorities further estimate that there are 10 associates for every made member. So, in addition to 20,000 to 25,000 made members, the four major Italian syndicates have 200,000 to 250,000 associates.

Federal Burea of Investigation (FBI)
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/lcnindex.htm

International Crime Threat Assessment (2000)
http://clinton4.nara.gov/WH/EOP/NSC/htm ... p3.html#r3

2: which drug do you think makes more money? Heroin or Cocaine. Im not saying Heroin does, Im actually asking. You think Cocaine or Heroin makes more money in Europe entirely.

That's a good question but a difficult one to answer. First, the prices of both heroin and cocaine constantly fluxuate up and down, from the manufacture end all the way to the retail end. Second, the price of both drugs is going to vary from country to country in Europe, both by the kilogram and by the gram. Third, the number of heroin and cocaine addicts fluxuates from year to year. Fourth, how much money is made, in terms of profit, is going to vary from organization to organization.

Because of the increased supply over the last 15 years, the average price of both heroin and cocaine has dropped significantly in Europe, giving rise to more users and addicts. In 1990, the price of a kilo of heroin in Europe ranged from $24,000 (Netherlands) to $350,000 (Finland). In 2005, the price of a kilo of heroin in Europe ranged from $15,000 (Greece) to $70,000 (Finland). By contrast, in 1990 the price of a kilo of cocaine in Europe ranged from $25,000 (Belgium) to $120,000 (Norway). In 2005, the price of a kilo of cocaine in Europe ranged from $30,500 (Ireland) to $68,000 (Finland). The latest estimates have Europe with about 3.3 million heroin "addicts" and 4.5 million "regular users of cocaine."

Unread post by **united** » March 29th, 2008, 9:52 pm

Polish Gangs

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/internati ... 80805.html

Unread post by **thewestside** » March 29th, 2008, 10:33 pm

JohnnyRed wrote:In recent years passage through the Balkans into Europe has grossly overshadowed
previous drug channels from Southeast Asia’s Golden Triangle.
This principal drug-shipping channel, known as the Balkan Route, is worth
an estimated $400 billion a year and handles 80 percent of the heroin destined
for sale in Europe.

Now we control that route. Even you said that westside. So whats 80% of 400,000,000,000?

First off, thank you for providing a source to support your argument. Normally, I wouldn't be one to quibble with the Deputy Director of the Global Organized Crime Program at the
Center for Strategic & International Studies. However, there is a problem here. Because of it's very nature, statistics related to organized crime vary widely. But none more so than the case of drugs. You have to differentiate between the production level, the wholesale level, and the retail level. Most of the time, government officials, law enforcement agencies, and journalists will quote retail figures because they are the largest and so are the most impressive. But even when a specific level is specified, the estimates still vary a great deal. What one has to do is usually try and find the average estimate, between the highs and the lows.

Now I have done quite a bit of study on the value of drug markets, both globally and in specific regions around the world. And I can say unequivicably and without hesitation that the Balkan heroin route IS NOT worth $400 billion a year. Not even close. In fact, that figure is so far off from all other estimates that I have seen as to be laughable.

Over the past decade, the United Nations has estimated that the global market for all illegal drugs is $400 billion. However, a recent study by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that even this estimate was likely too high, and stated so in the World Drug Report for 2005 -

"The value of the global illicit drug market for the year 2003 was estimated at $13 billion at the production level, at $94 billion at the wholesale level (taking seizures into account), and at $322 billion based on retail prices and taking seizures and other losses into account."

Source: United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), World Drug Report 2005 (Vienna, Austria: UNODC, June 2005), p. 127.

Already in the Turin region, according
to Italian authorities, the Albanians supplanted all of the other foreign
criminal groups—from Nigerians to Moroccans—that had been operating in
the area. The Albanians and the Italians simultaneously have a symbiotic
and competitive relationship. The fares take business from the mafia, but
they also provide invaluable services. Despite this bifurcated existence, the
Italians fear that the fares will use the exodus of refugees as a means of staking
out an even larger sphere of influence in southern Italy. A British Home
Office report warns that the Albanian clans are exceptionally vicious and
“make the Italian Mafia look like a whist drive.”

It is well known that the Albanians are well established in Northern Italian cities like Turin. An important part of the above report says "The Albanians and the Italians simultaneously have a symbiotic and competitive relationship." That is partially true. The Italians and Albanians do have a symbiotic relationship, but not so much a competitive one. The Italians and Albanians work together much more than against one another. As I've said before, the Italian syndicates have allowed the Albanians to directly control most prostitution rackets in Italy, provided they pay for the right to operate. The Italians and the Albanians reguarly operate as joint-partners in smuggling operations involving drugs, weapons, immigrants, cigarettes, etc. In recent years, many Albanians have been the victims of economic schemes by Albanian crime groups which were "stage managed" by Italian crime groups. That said, the Albanian's presence in Italy is limited, but especially in Southern Italy where all four of the major Italian syndicates are based. And while I have no idea what a "whist drive" is, my guess that the above statement that Albanian clans make the Italian Mafia "look like a whist drive" is little more than hyperbole.