thewestside wrote:Why is this so hard for you to understand? It isn't a case of Capeci vs. me. It is a case of Capeci (and one estimate which he got from a law enforcement source) against the average of several other estimates from law enforcement sources. If you were being honest, you would admit that the latter is more reliable.AlbaniaUnited wrote:Quite pretending you have any idea about the Colombo family member estimate before Capeci. You no where close to Capeci's level of expertise on the mafia.
The list is not all inclusive. It is only those names that have been able to be verified independently. But the main point is that 96 names being listed here shows that estimate of 75-85 members of the Colombo Family is too low. Can't you count?There is only 96 members on that list. Not 110 or 112. Whats wrong with you 'westside'? Can't you count?
If you want to use that selective definition of "manpower," that is fine. But even then, an LCN Family with at least 100 members and 3-5 times as many associates is going to have more shooters and enforcers than a gang with a total membership of a few dozen.When I said manpower 'westside' I meant clippers, shooter, men capable of running in a gambling spot and beating up everyone inside. The Colombos do not have 375 of these type of men. The majority of them are old and incapable of running at all. The Rudajs were all capable of doing this as they have proved it by doing it. This is why I said in terms of manpower, it is debatable while in terms of wealth and overall power. The Colombos exceed the Rudajs.
First off, thank you for providing a source on this. Second, you should keep in mind that "gambling spots" can mean many things. Gambling clubs? Yes. But most of that 50 gambling spots figure was likely outlets for the gang's video poker machines.The gambling dens the mob ran in the NY area were very lucrative. The seven clubs listed above were among 50 gambling spots the gang ran. The RICO indictment attempts to seize $5.8 million in ill-gotten gains from seven defendants and $3.4 million from all 22 defendants, based on the gambling allegations.
http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2004/11/ ... mafia.html
I'm not going to hold your hand in every little thing. Russian crime groups being more powerful in both New York and the rest of the U.S. than Albanian groups is common knowledge. This is what I mean by you being "wilfully ignorant." You know the Russians are considered more powerful but you are pretending otherwise.I will need to see some cold hard evidence of this. I would also like to see from you some evidence that Russians pay tribute to any mafia family in NY because it is hard for me to believe that people like the Russians would pay the Italians.
Russian mobsters have been paying LCN Families in New York since the late 1970's. One of the first and most famous examples is when Russian and Eastern European gangsters developed that fuel tax evasion scam and the LCN moved in and took over the operation, forcing the Russians to make them their partners or at least pay them a tax. Now do all Russian mobsters pay the LCN in all instances? No. But in many instances, that is still the case.
Here again is a link -
In 2003, PMC International, a police consulting agency, described how the Russian mob still has to give the LCN a cut of it's activities in the New York/New Jersey area.
http://www.providencephoenix.com/featur ... 288673.asp
Nobody said everyone is giving the Mafia 50% of their paychecks. But the built in "mob tax" that New Yorkers pay due to inflated prices induced by organized crime in any number of industries is substantial. And it dwarfs any extortion operations by other groups. Through control of labor unions, industry associations, and key companies, the LCN can inflate costs across the board in the waterfront, garbage hauling, construction, trucking, food wholesaling, and so on. You're telling me you don't see a difference between this and a Russian, Chinese, or Albanian gangster shaking down local businesses in their own communities through the threat of violence?What you don't want to understand is that the tax that you speak of does not even build up to 0.03%. But you talk about it like we are paying the mafia 50% of our paychecks every week. As for the shake down comparison. In the end the Russians and Albanians would end up doing the same thing as the Italians and that would be collect protection money from the business. Except the Italians could do it easier depending on who the owner is. The Italians will be told to ''go fu-- themselves'' before any Albanian or Russian though because of their new found way to steer clear of any sort of conflict.
Yes, you could say the video implied the Albanians are one of the top groups in New York. That isn't the disagreement. The disagreement comes from you assuming that simply because the Albanians were mentioned, that they are as powerful as the Russians or Chinese, or even more powerful than other groups like the Cubans. I explained why this is not the case.I did not say the CNN video said the Albanians were among the top groups in New York. They implyed it. They said the Russians and Albanians are carving out peices of the mafias turf which is natural. The new deafeats the old. The Italians are still ranked the top organisation in New York but the Italians continue to lose tremendous strenght while the Russians and Albanians are gaining everyday. The Gambinos are on the verge of extinction for example. They are dividing themselves more and more a lot worse then they did during Castellanos reign and several dozens of members are being indicted every year. 50 or more just this year.
The fact that you said "the Gambinos are on the verge of extinction" is proof positive that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Do you realize that many were predicting the Gambino's demise over 15 years ago following the conviction of Gotti? The media, and some law enforcement officials, have historically been very quick and premature in their predictions of the demise of La Cosa Nostra. Only in recent times have they become more careful about making those statements.
There have not been 50 members Gambino members indicted this year. The biggest bust (back in February) involved 87 people - 27 members and 60 associates. As is the usual case, most of the defendants made plea deals and got relatively light sentences. For instance, those in the Gambino administration - Jackie D'Amico, Domenico Cefalu, and Joseph Corozzo - are only doing a few years or so each. So far the biggest one hit was captain Nick Corozzo, who pled out for 15 years. But that was because he was facing murder charges.
In the end, however, the Gambinos are the second strongest LCN Family in the U.S. after the Genovese. They have about 200 members and 600-1,000 associates. They have huge operations in illegal gambling, loansharking, exortion, drug trafficking, labor racketeering, fraud, stolen goods, as well as interests in the waterfront, garbage, construction, and trucking industries. The Gambinos own bars, restaurants, nightclubs, strip clubs, food and beverage wholesaling firms, real estate companies, vending outlets, etc. Very far from being extinct.
If that was really the case, there would be more examples besides the Rudaj gang of other groups trying to take on the LCN. I'll ask you again to give me some examples. What the Rudaj gang had been done before. For example, black operaters tried taking over the Lucchese Family's numbers territories in New Jersey years ago. But just like the Rudaj gang, they were ultimately not successful.The Rudajs sticking a gun at The Squids face and telling the Gambinos to drop their weapons or they'll kill everybody did not symbolise the Albanians taking over the Italian mafia. It represented the new criminals in New York making their own place in the crime world as well as the tremendous loss of strength of the Italians.[/b][/i]
Once again, the meeting at the gas station was just that - a meeting at a gas station. The Rudaj guys were greatly outnumbered and to get the Gambinos to back off one of them threatened to shoot a gas pump. Did they hold their ground? Yes. Were they showing disrespect to the LCN? Yes. Would such a thing have happened 50 years ago? No. But that meeting, or anything else the Rudaj gang did, only showed that the Albanians - like every other group - are carving out their own piece in the American underworld. But those instances were simply not evidence of some great landmark or turningpoint in the organized crime landscape.
The Corporation's founder, Jose Miguel Battle, started out in Florida working for Santo Trafficante, Meyer Lansky, and other LCN members and associates. In terms of it's illegal gambling operations, especially numbers, the Cuban Corporation could match any single New York LCN Family. But, overall, any single New York LCN Family is more powerful.No I did not forget that. Did you forget your life somewhere? The Cuban Corporation is much more powerful then the Rudaj Corporation. You will find no argument from me on that one. I never said otherwise. I have read about the Cuban Corporation but I found a link about them on accident about two years ago and remember reading that they started in Florida or something and expanded to NY and NJ. The Cuban Corporation is very powerful. I would compare it to any of the five families in NY for sure. They might even exceed all of them
For crying out loud, I didn't bring Albanians into the argument. You accused me of being biased against Albanians simply because I disagree with some of your claims about them. JohnnyRed did the same thing. And like I said before, Albanian posters are rather well known for creating havoc on organized crime forums and message boards. You and JohnnyRed are evidence of this, being too of the biggest shit-stirrers on this board alone.Before I answer you I would like to say you dont have to bring all Albanians into our argument because it is our argument. This proves your biased and racist towards Albanians. We are talking about NY crime and you mention Albanians being insecure and other BS. Albanians are not insecure and I hope you have an actual convo with an Albanian one day so he can show you just how insecure we are that's all I wish to say on this matter
I would agree that Faciulina is the Italian JohnnyRed. But you are really no different. In the beginning you were reasonable but you soon morphed into a JohnnyRed clone.Secondly I would like you to name one poster on here who 'pegs me as a fool'. Even Razbojnik who showed the most aggression towards JohnnyRed and Albanians in gerneral has admitted respect for me. Oh wait I forgot Faciulina who thinks there are 3000 Sicilian mobsters outside the American LCN might peg me as a fool. And you because I wont let you say the Italians dominant ever aspect of human life in every single country in the world.
I'm not trying to downsize Kadriovski or any Albanian. If anything, you are oversizing them like you did here. He is not one of America's main sources of heroin. The vast majority of the heroin smuggled into the U.S. comes from Colombia and Mexico. Relatively little comes from sources in the Middle East, which is where an Albanian trafficker like Kadriovski would get his supply.Daut Kadriovski was one of the very top drug traffickers in Europe. He created a pipeline to Australia with the Albanians in Sydney. Now hes in the U.S operating here. He is a global trafficker. He is one of Americas main sources of Afghan heroin and has liutenants in NY and Philly. How does he qualify as a single trafficker? I don't even know what you mean by this. A ''single trafficker''. Are stupidly implying that hes smuggling the drugs in himself and selling it alone? Ismail Lika was accused of smuggling $125 million worth of heroin during the time the feds investigated him. Why do you continuely downsize every Albanian personality or organisation?[/b][/i]
Did I say there was anything wrong with Mustafa working for an LCN Family? Quite the opposite. I have repeatedly said that Mustafa made more money working for the Gambinos than Rudaj ever did fighting against them.Zef Mustafa was a very high-level associate of the Gamino family. He grew up with the Locascio's and considered Tore his father since he was an orphan. Zef Mustafa was considered extremely violent and viscious. He was also a friend of John Gotti, he was caught on tape entering the Ravenite club 115 times during a 3 year span. There is nothing wrong working with an Italian mafia family. He was raised with the Locascios since childhood. Also according to the article you gave me it seems that Zef scared even his fellow wise guys.
Yes, the Albanians are involved in both drugs and arms trafficking. But, in terms of drug trafficking, it is still on a relatively small scale compared to other groups and that is not what they are most known for. Like many other groups, the Albanians have their biggest presence in New York. And there, generally speaking, they are most well known for illegal gambling and burglary operations.Wrong. I live here I have an insight as well as official looks into what Albanians are known for. And that would be Drugs and Arms trafficking even in America.
Italian crime groups have been in the U.S. for over a century. The New York Families have existed for over 75 years. The LCN began to decline as a whole in the 1970's due to any number of factors but the speed at which it has declined has varied from city to city. New York has always had the largest LCN presence, with five large families compared to a single smaller one in other cities. Today, 750 of the remaining 1,100 members in the American LCN (or about 70%) belong to the five New York families. They get hit with numerous indictments every year. But all the indictments, rats, competition from other groups, etc. do is slowly weaken the families. The only thing that will see the end of the LCN families in New York is general attrtion and that won't be for years to come. Decades really.Correction it is a somewhat fast decline. Indictments are being handed down like bread at a family table. Wiseguys are flipping more then ever under court pressure and snitches are being placed all over the Italian mafia. It was due to a snitch that all those mafia members were indicted.
Isnt' that interesting? When Capeci says something you like, his word is gold. When he says something you don't like, he is "exaggerating." And just like JohnnyRed did, you say he's doing it because he is Italian.Although this guy as well exhaggerates a little bit as well. Not to mention he's Italian. One example would be he said nobody will EVER replace the Italians. Thats a little far fetched. He is right about the Albanians not being as powerful as the Italians in 2008 America. I never argued that.
Capeci is correct in saying no other group will ever replace the Italians. And that is simply because the same sociological, political, economic, and law enforcement factors that allowed the LCN to become as powerful in the U.S. as it did are simply not there today for other crime groups.
I would respect you opinion more if it was more researched and consistent. Now you don't think the Albanians would be behind the Italians? See what I mean about you not being able to make up your mind?Well if that is your opinion I respect it. You choose not to respect my opinion and thats find. I don't think the Albanians would be behing the Italians, Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Colombians and Dominicans. But then again I don't know where to place any of these organisations based on one, two, three ranks. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. These seven are very well the most powerful in New york though. Where they are ranked I will not say because I don't know. I'll leave it to you to say since your obviously the God of organised crime.
-I don't know how to talk to a man with a dictionary and ideas such as yours. I said Daut Kadriovski is one of America's main source of Afghan heroin. You accuse me of saying Daut Kadriovski is the main supplier of American herion. See what I mean? You do not pay attention to what I say. You say New Yorkers pay a substantial tax to the mafia. Thats BS. Like I said again the tax would not add up to 1% of any kind of tax. There are 20,000,000 New Yorkers. If they had to pay a tax of even 2% extra to any company because of the mafia, they would be swimming in cash. Zef Mustafa arguebly made more money then Alex Rudaj. Zef Mustafa did make a substantial amount of money. More money then most Gambino members.
-How are you going to sit here and tell me what Albanians are known for? I live right here where many Albanian crime rings get started. In the Bronx. I know the idea people have of Albanians. Drugs, arms and construction is what we are known for.
-I do not keeping switching side. I have told you numerous times my opinion is that in 2008 the Italians are still the top organised criminal group in New York. Russians are the top organised crime group in the United States. Mexicans are top criminals organised or not in the United States. And this will be my opinion until I am proved otherwise. Capeci's theory of nobody replacing the Italians ever is very far-fetched. What if the Moscow mob started placing Russian gangsters in New York? What if Albania experienced another disaster and another 500,000 Albanians came to the United States? What would happen then? This is why I think he's exhaggerating a little bit too much. Nobody knows what will happen.
-And yes you did bring Albanians into the argument. You started saying things such as Albanians are insecure and other BS. As if that has anything to do with the argument. Which also proves your biased. I am only a clone of JohnnyRed now because I have my own opinions and won't let you say Italians dominate the world. You have proven yourself unreasonable and have given me an image of you being some kind of lifeless computer geek sitting behind a computer all day with no job, no responsibilities anywhere. Honestly if I can ask a personal question what do you do for a living college boy? Convince people Italians dominate the world?