U.S. 2009 National Drug Threat Assessment

[thewestside]

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs31/31379/31379p.pdf

Check out the Drug Trafficking Organizations section in the report.

[thewestside]

Thewestside! I missed you. Where you been? How can this be the 2009 drug report? Its still 2008.

The report is usually released a couple weeks before the new year begins. As far as the report goes, it specifically cites Mexican, Asian (Chinese and Vietnamese), Colombian, Dominican, Cuban, and Italian groups in the Drug Trafficking Organizations section. Hmmm.....I wonder why Albanians weren't mentioned since, according to you, they are so big time and bigger than the Italians.

[Faciulina]

ahahahahahahahahaha i bet jonhyred is getting mad because he can't find the word "albanian" typing the search button LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Faciulina]

I never said that Albanian criminals are more significant in America then Italian criminals. I've argued that Albanian organized crime surpasses Italian in certain area like Detroit but never in America overall. I've said that they are more prominent in Europe but again, never stated so for America. Just more of your lies and inability to produce a proper argument.

ahahahahaha yeah you said it moron but now you're contradict yourself because you know you said juts BS LOOOOOL the italian mafia is the strongest in north america and australia and albanians are nothing there the italian mafia is the strongest in europe and the albanian eventually are second or third there

[thewestside]

I never said that Albanian criminals are more significant in America then Italian criminals. I've argued that Albanian organized crime surpasses Italian in certain area like Detroit but never in America overall. I've said that they are more prominent in Europe but again, never stated so for America. Just more of your lies and inability to produce a proper argument.

You have claimed that Albanians are now bigger drug traffickers in the U.S. than the Italians are, as well as that the Italians are no longer involved in importing narcotics. I told you that there was no evidence to make either claim but you did so anyway.

However, I find it very weird Albanians were not mentioned in that report.. when so many other http://www.usdoj.gov reports do mention them as significant if not top traffickers in areas such as Detroit, Chicago and New York/Jersey. Especially in marijuana and MDMA.

It's very simple. Most of those Justice Department reports are geared towards specific regions, groups, etc. In that respect, any number of groups can be mentioned. The National Drug Threat Assessment given annually gives an "overall" reading of the drug trade in the U.S. for the previous year. Albanian traffickers are significant in certain regions but they are not at the general level you envision and have repeatedly claimed they are.

[Faciulina]

Reuters AlertNet - Bush aims sanctions at PKK, Italian crime groups
Using a U.S. anti-drug trafficking law, Bush designated the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, and the 'Ndrangheta Organization

www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30314873.htm - 33k

The most I have said is that they are responsible for importing a percentage of middle eastern heroin in America

ahahahahah why are not in that list then? ndrangheta import a large part of heroin togheter pkk LOOOOOOOL it also is the biggest in cocaine trafficking because it owns cocaine plants in colombia and it produces cocaine by itself

[thewestside]

They arent involved in importing anything. Besides the cells from IOC that were set up in North America. Even they dont import anything to be mentioned as significant importers. The Italians were mentioned because they distribute narcotics in America. Not for importing it. The importing comes from the Spanish groups as well as some Asians.

You obviously haven't read the report. But that's not surprising. Time and time again you have made statements like the one above with no basis on fact.

LCN members facilitate drug smuggling through several major U.S. maritime POEs (point of entries), have very close working relationships with Italian organized crime (IOC), and are increasingly working with Mexican DTOs.

IOC members smuggle multiton quantities of marijuana and cocaine into the United States for distribution; they also smuggle lesser quantities of heroin and MDMA.

I have never claimed them as any more significant then they are. I never said they are big time traffickers in America. I have always stated certain areas and regions when I talked about Albanian criminals in drugs. The most I have said is that they are responsible for importing a percentage of middle eastern heroin in America. That is why I am surprised that they werent mentioned. Again, inability to produce proper arguments is kicking in. If you want to argue with me, at least tell the truth.

Just about everything you say, as well as infer, places Albanian groups generally higher than they are, both here in the U.S. as well as around the world.

[thewestside]

No they dont but you are too ignorant on Albanian mafia matters. You were one with Teekay to say, "Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?" Most of your knowledge of the Albanian mafia comes from me.

I venture to say I was studying Albanian organized crime before you were. The difference is, I don't devote 90% of my time to studying it alone like you do. I know enough about Albanian organized crime to recognize the fact that much of what you say in regards to it in New York, in the United States, in Europe, and around the world is overstated.

[thewestside]

No you dont. While I spend 90% of my reading on Albanian OC, you spend it on Italian OC. For everyone of my claims, you needed a source. That is how much you know about the Albanian mafia... for the Italians you know exact names and figures. You can tell us about some Italian mobster choking his girlfriend to death but before I came here you didnt even know about Daut Kadriovski, Princ Dobroshi, Agim Gashi, The 15 families, Behgjet Pacolli. You didnt even know about Alex Rudaj. When we first started posting on here. You alongside Teekay were yelling out, besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?? How about the Albanian marijuana trafficking organizations in Canada [The Albanians from Canada that put Rudaj to shame remember?], the Detroit groups [Ermira Hatija and this human smuggling organization that America is charging the defendents $70 million USD], how about Daut Kadriovski. You probably did read about Albanian organized crime before I started to, I dont doubt that. But you dont spend enough time reading it to actually know what it really is. You dont know anything of the Kanun which is pretty much the code the Albanian mafia strictly follows. But you can tell us probably every code the Ndrangheta writes down.


Also, if you have any articles of Australian organized crime, send them over.

I spend time researching all types of OC groups. It's just that you have turned this board into a neverending contest between Albanians and Italians or Albanians and this group or that group. I can discuss just about any OC group in the world. You know only what you can dig up in a quick Google search. You're a 16 year old ameteur pretending to be an expert when he doesn't have a clue in the world.

[thewestside]

Case in point, what you said above. You stated that the Italians were not involved in smuggling drugs into the U.S. I said there was no evidence to make that statement. But you did so anyway. And this is after I provided you with the latest National Drug Threat Assessment report. But you didn't read it and just kept spouting your BS anyway. And after I cited specific references that proved you wrong, you didn't acknowledge you were wrong or respond in any way. You just ignored it and moved on. This is why I am done with you for the most part. You are not concerned with the facts. You never have been. You are only concerned with what facts, real or imaginary, you can dig up that makes Albanians look superior. Of course, Faciulina is the same way with Italians. What's hilarious is how much you two fight when you are so much like one another.

[razbojnik]

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs31/31379/31379p.pdf

Check out the Drug Trafficking Organizations section in the report.

Thewestside! I missed you. Where you been? How can this be the 2009 drug report? Its still 2008.

LMAO TheEastSide LOOOOOOOOL

[thewestside]

How do you know I didnt read it? I read almost every part that had the word Italian in it. I searched the words Italian in it on the top and read every highlighted part. While you make it seem that the Italians are still significant importers, that is not the case at all. This is why I am always arguing with you. You hype the Italians and downsize everyone else but we have to take you serious because you have a college education. Please. I never said that the Italians werent involved in importing drugs. I just said they are barely importing drugs. And they barely are. Most of that report states them as distributors of drugs not importers. The IOC groups do import but its not even a fraction of what the Colombian and Mexican groups do. Or even the Cubans. You make it seem like I am some biased know it all who only cares about the Albanian mafia. Its not like that. I just dont like it when you downsize everyone else and pump the Italians up. Its obvious your in the Italian favor in every conversation. I mean you spend 95% of your time researching them. You can tell us about specific details like that Madonna guy strangling his girlfriend but you didnt even know who Prince Dobroshi is. You didnt even know Agim Gashi and he was in Italy. But you say you know enough. You know what you want to know, which is barely anything. You read a few summary reports and think you have the Albanian mafia down. Then you spend the rest of the day reading about specifics on the Italians mafia.

Read what YOU said in this very thread up above -

They arent involved in importing anything. Besides the cells from IOC that were set up in North America. Even they dont import anything to be mentioned as significant importers. The Italians were mentioned because they distribute narcotics in America. Not for importing it.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Best case scenario you have the memory of a fruit fly in that you can't even remember what you yourself have said. Worst case scenario you are an out and out liar. Either way, it's impossible to have an honest discussion with you. Bottom line, you said the Italians didn't import anything. Then you backpeddled, as you often do after you realized you said something wrong, and said they don't import anything of signficance. However, by the simple fact they were included in the report says they are significant. Nobody is saying they are as big as the Mexicans or other groups. Once again you are just trying to invent an argument I didn't make because you have been shown to be wrong yet again. Likewise, I am not trying to hype the Italians. This report is informative in respect to many groups but the subject of the Italians came up because of the false statements you had made about them previously. And anyone has to notice that you have paid very little attention to this report and likely have not read it. And the reason is obvious. Because it doesn't mention Albanians. If it did, you would be waiving the report from the rooftops.

Finally, you really aren't concerned with the general facts or specific details of any group, including the Albanians really. All you care about is trying to "win" an argument here on this board. That's why you have repeatedly said "Well, I guess I won." Could you be any more immature? Forget 16, you act like a 5 year old. And what's so ridiculous is you declare yourself the "winner." But it's not surprising as you are the only one that believes your BS. Nobody else here does. You still can't name one person that believes your claims about Albanian organized crime. And generally speaking, the authorities don't either. More often than not, you have just cherrypicked statements that favor Albanians, disregard those that don't, or misstate things to say what you want. You are a fraud and a liar. I'm content to just let the baby (you) have his bottle.

[thewestside]

You dont have to to be content because you have no reason to act superior here. I was wrong about the Italians and their drug operations. I did claim that they dont import anything anymore which is obviously not the case. But you make it seem like they are still importing hundreds of kilos a month. The IOC is more active in drug importation then the LCN in America being because they have deeper connections.

It's only after you are backed into a corner and provided with irrefutable evidence that you will admit you were wrong. And if that were all there was too it, it wouldn't be so bad. The problem is, you won't change. You have always will likely will continue to make false statements that have no basis in fact. Likewise, you will continue to attribute statements to me I have never made. Case in point, that of above. I have never stated, or even inferred, how much drugs Italian groups are importing into the U.S. Why? Because I haven't read any official statistics on it and so don't simply make stuff up like you do. But it is clear that because Italian groups were mentioned in this report, it must be something significant.

I dont know how to have an honest argument? I give a dossier saying the Albanian mafia rules the west and in response you give me a news report saying, "Ndrangheta: Europes leading crime machine". Then the newspaper doesnt even bother explaining how it is or why it is. It just goes off about their cocaine activities. The most that was was a catchy title to catch the readers attention. YOUR the one that has no real argument.

Seriously, do you have brain damage or something? Here is proof that you can't make an honest argument because you can't even remember what was said before! I offered that article about the 'Ndrangheta being "Europe's leading crime machine" to simply show that any number of articles or reports can state this group or that groups is preeminent. I said it doesn't necessarily mean anything in and of itself. What I've said repeatedly is the combined body of evidence.

I never claimed the Albanian mafia to be more powerful then the Italian mafia in America. So I dont know what your trying to prove with this report or any of your responses in this thread. The only place I have claimed the Albanians to be more powerful is in Europe and the Middle East.

I originally wasn't trying to prove anything with this report. Just posting it because it was informative. But the report, of itself, did prove you wrong.

Did you start with the fruitfly business again?

Because you keep showing that your memory is severely lacking. You can't even remember things you yourself said a day or two ago. You contradict yourself in the same thread. That's why it's impossible to have an honest discussion with you. The problem isn't just that you are biased. You are also just not that bright.

[thewestside]

Oh wow, your really a capital dcikhead to the limit. You just dont stop. I made statements about the Italians before hands. This article did prove me wrong but not really. The Italians are involved in narcotics in America but you are making it seem like they are where they were. Have you noticed that the Italians were mentioned last everytime they said Colombians, Dominicans, Cubans and Italians. On that map thing where it shows where they are active the Italians are only seen active in about 12-15 cities. Mostly where there are LCN families present. While every other group is active everywhere the Italians are plus alot more. But your making it seem like the Pizza connection is coming back. All in all, the Italians were not mentioned that much throughout the report.

"You make it seem like...." This is how you invent an argument and then attribute it to me, arguing against something I never said.

I have made no mention of comparing the Italians to any other group in the report. Simply that they are mentioned in the report means that they are significant, including importing operations, which goes in the face of what you have said. If you knew anything about this report, it gives a general assessement of the biggest groups involved in the overall narcotics trade in the U.S. for the previous year.

Most of their drug activities are in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent, cocaine and heroin.

You can't even read the report right you nitwit. The report says -

IOC members smuggle multiton quantities of marijuana and cocaine into the United States for distribution; they also smuggle lesser quantities of heroin and MDMA.

Notice how it says "multiton" quantities of marijuna and cocaine. Now if that was in reference to Albanian groups, you would be all over that. But because it is Italians, you completely overlook it and dismiss it as insignificant.

Proof once again you are a biased fraud who has an agenda.

No see there is a big difference between something released from the police and a news report that provides no information. Now the Belgian police dossier came from the Police department, and they explained just why the Albanian clans rule the west. The Ndrangheta report only stated for the title that "Ndrangheta is Europe's leading crime machine" only for readers attention. Then it makes no reports or claims of it again below. I mean, it would be different if an official said it and he explained how, but not because its the title of a news article.

It doesn't matter even if something does come from an official report or statement by an authority. You don't care whether something is official or explains itself. You simply care about whether it says what you want it to say. If it says something you like, it has credibility. If it says something you don't like, you dismiss it.

Right. Your problem is that you twist my words upside down, and respond to your own version of what I said. In doing so, anyone can think they are honest and straight foward while the other person is hard headed.

I respond to exactly what you say. You are the one who repeatedly forgets what he even said! Just once you should take responsiblity for the BS that you say instead of blaming me for "twisting your words upside down."

I'm not that bright? Well if you actually knew who I was, you would know that I skipped a grade. All in all, school is boring, I get by without lifting a finger. You on the other hand already have a college education and severely lack any insight in your own studies. I dont know if its because your biased or just the typical dumb, idiotic college educated American person.

Your school must not have very high standards.

[thewestside]

Besides Alex Rudaj, who else is there?

Show me where I ever said that.

[thewestside]

The only thing I read about importing was the little sentence that said they are involved in importing from Maritime US POEs. The Italians are visible traffickers of drugs in America but nowhere close to the point in which you see them.

How would you know where I "see them." I haven't said where I see them. I simply provided this report which proved your claims that Italians are not involved in importing narcotics in the U.S. wrong. Likewise, it shows your claim that Albanians are bigger drug traffickers in the U.S. than Italians as not necessarily true.

Lol! Idiot! Multiton does not mean what you think it does. It doesnt mean MULTI TONNES!

This is why you are considered the DUMBEST poster on this forum. Even more than Faciulina. "Multi" means multiple. In this case, multiple tons. Just another reason I hate arguing with you because your understanding of even the most basic things is lacking.

Keep reading the report. You'll notice on the overview or in another section is says that Italian DTOs traffick in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent cocaine and heroin

I've read the entire report. And I am also aware of what the indictments involving the Italians in the U.S. shows. They are most involved in trafficking cocaine and marijuana.

Yes whatever you say. There is no talking to you... If I give you an official report and claims for my own claims and assumptions. Im biased and have an agenda. If I quote Cataldo Motta saying that the Albanian mafia PUSHED the Ndrangheta out of prostitution in North Italy, I am a bised idiot with the memory of a fruitfly. The only way I can have creditabilty with you is if I say the Italian mafia controls everything, everywhere. Otherwise, I am a Nazi Nationalist Albanian. I have proved my point of the Albanians in Europe. What you believe is up to you. I know for myself where the Albanian mafia stands in Europe.

Your entire case rests on Motta's quote. I don't dismiss what he said but, judging from everything else I have read over the years about organized crime in Italy, I believe what he said was overstated. Similar to Snelling's comments here in the U.S. that the Rudaj organization amounted to a "sixth crime family." I consider what every official says but don't always take it at face value, especially if it conflicts with all of the available evidence. Your only criteria is that they say what you want them to say.

You have proven your point about Albanians in Europe? To who besides yourself? If you had really proven your point, there would be at least one person on this board that believes your claims about Albanian organized crime. Once again, I challenge you to name a single person. We both know you won't be able to.

I do take responsibility for what I say. But you answer to your own forms of what I say.

No you do not. If you did, you wouldn't make the false accusation that I twist your words around. Much of the time you forget what you have said, even a few days before. You contradict yourself in the same threads. You aren't familiar with your own sources. You take a few snippets from articles here and there and blow them completely out of proportion. You simply don't like the fact that I throw your BS right back in your face and hold you accountable for all the stupid things you say.

[thewestside]

If you compare this NDTA to the 2008 NDTA you will notice that the Italians have increased their activities this year. The existence of IOC is becoming more visible in America. The article also mentions that the LCN is reestablishing their drug networks despite their massive arrests thought out the years.

Not exactly breaking news in either case. Authorities have been stating this for years now.

Also I never knew Asians were really that powerful in drug trafficking in America. According to the report, they out weigh the Colombians and are second to only the Mexicans.

The time will probably come when the Colombians will no longer be involved in a significant level with trafficking in America. The trend of them scaling back direct activity has been in effect for a decade now. However the other groups, including the Mexicans, will always need them for cocaine which is still far and away the biggest drug of choice in the U.S. Likewise, groups around the world will need the Colombians for cocaine. And the Colombians will likely continue to be signficant suppliers of heroin and marijuana to the western hemisphere.

[Faciulina]

I see you did not reply to me on this thread. Typical. Everytime I call you straight out on your BS, you back away and dont answer.

ahahahahaahaha you forgot a little particular... nobody cares of albanian-chickenthieves-mob except you in america australia and everywhere people litterally don't know even albania exist in europe albanian are something but nothing compared to italian mafia

[thewestside]

I see you did not reply to me on this thread. Typical. Everytime I call you straight out on your BS, you back away and dont answer.

Or maybe it was because I lost track of it among all your other inane posts.

That was the first time I heard the word 'multiton'. It must have been a typo. It doesn't show up on the online dictionary or anything. I have Mozilla firefox and it underlines my words in red if I spelled them wrong while I type like Microsoft Word and it is underlining multiton as we speak. The only result for multiton on the internet is that it is a pattern of a certain class. If they really did mean multi-tonnes. It was a typo. If they didn't, it means something else.

See what I mean? You are an idiot. You don't even know what "multiton" means. It means the Mafia is moving multiple tons of cocaine and marijuana. It couldn't be more simple, yet it goes completely over your head.

I remember the report specifically saying they were involved in marijuana and MDMA and to a lesser extent, cocaine and heroin. Go back and read it, my computer takes forever to load it.

Let's try this one more time.

What the report says about LCN families in the U.S. -

"LCN members engage in numerous criminal activities, including wholesale distribution of high-potency marijuana and MDMA and, to a lesser extent, cocaine and heroin."

What the report says about Italian syndicates in the U.S. -

"IOC members smuggle multiton quantities of marijuana and cocaine into the United States for distribution; they also smuggle lesser quantities of heroin and MDMA."

Understand?

Also, Fred Snelling never said the Rudaj Organization amounted to a sixth family. That was a misquote from the newspapers like New York Times and such. Fred Snellings real quote was "Your used to hearing about the five families, well... this must be the sixth." And like I said over and over, the comment comes from the fact that Rudaj was structured like the mafia families. He had his under bosses, members, associates, enforcers and such and viewed him self as well as portrayed himself as a mafia boss. It wasn't about actual power. It was about the image of the Rudaj Organization. If it was about actual power. They could have called the Asian crime syndicate that was busted at the same time as Rudaj the sixth family because they had more members and were probably more powerful then him.

There you go again, mealy mouthing and trying to read into it what you want. Bottom line, Snelling referred to the Rudaj organization as a "sixth family." You don't know what he specifically meant so quit making your own stupid assumptions. The Rudaj organization was not a sixth family in any way. It was organized like an LCN family. You just don't want to admit that Snelling was wrong because you then would have to admit that Albanians are not "pushing aside" the Italians, which was an idea that stemmed wholly from the Rudaj organization.

Okay, let me ask you. Why would I need to have support from people on this board when I have support from officials in Europe? Does my case actually get stronger if lets say the Belgian police didn't support me but Faciulina did? You need to leave this popularity contest.

Lets just leave it like this about the Albanian mafia in Europe. I have a police dossier from Belgium that supports me. What do you have?

If you had presented any convincing evidence of your claims about Albanian organized crime in all the time you've been here, surely you would have convinced at least one person here. But you havent'. You keep bringing up the Belgian dossier as if that is the final word. Rather, it's just a case of you picking whatever says the Albanians are strongest while ignoring evidence that doesn't.

I am not having this conversation with you anymore. You accuse me of being stupid and ignorant. I accuse you of the same thing. I accuse you of not reading my sources clearly. You accuse me of pumping up the Albanian mafia's position. You accuse me of cutting out snippets even though I provide you with sources, quotes and reports of officials [which I don't know would be considered snippets] but that is not enough from you. I accuse you of being totally ignorant of the Albanian mafia because you spend your time reading about Madonna strangling his girlfriend.

For the record, his name is Matteo Messina Denaro. And why do you keep bringing him up? The fact is, Italian bosses like him are more well known than Albanian bosses, so of course more is going to be known about them. The fact that I know he strangled his girlfriend doesn't mean I don't know about the Albanians. Your arguments just get weaker and weaker.

[Faciulina]

IGNORING WHAT? OMG LOL! WHAT AM I IGNORING? Give me one source that says the Albanians are not the top organization in Europe. What we both have is information on both groups. We have statements, sources, credits, etc... on both groups but only one of us has an official document saying loud and clear. The Albanian mafia dominates Western Europe. And I think we know that the Albanians are more powerful in Eastern Europe then the Italians. So its only common sense that the Albanians surpass the Italians in Europe. I mean they control heroin. Come on, not to mention their roles in other fields such as prostitution, robberies, car thefts, arms trafficking and human trafficking and legal investments.

ahahahahaha you moron i posted tons of article say the ndrangheta is the strongest in europe and you have a belgian dossier talking about mafias not only albanians LOOOOOL the albanians don't dominate western that's BS the italian mafia is stronger than albanian mob in western eastern and even some balkan areas i posted article saying clearly it LOOOOL the albanians are strong in heroin trafficking they are thied behind ndrangheta and pkk but they are nothing in legal investments cocaine waste disposal gambling and tons of other business they don't control anymore prostitution and human trafficking please you don't know europe you live in the states stop dreaming man

[thewestside]

Or maybe it was because you had nothing else to say. Look at your responses down low. Probably the worst responses you have made yet.

I've simply grown tired of going around and around in the same arguments with you.

Go on dictionary.com and type multiton. See what comes up you fcuking moron. The word does not exist. It was a typo.

You will see the word "multiton" in any number of law enforcement reports. Sometimes it's typed "multi-ton." Either way, it means multiple tons. And in this case, the report said Italian OC groups are involved in smuggling multions (multiple tons) of cocaine and marijuna into the U.S., which directly contradicts your cock and bull opinion that Italian groups were not significant smugglers anymore.

Okay so I got mixed up and crossed over LCN with IOC. Big deal. You have made mistakes just as big before.

I don't think so.

He said, "What we have here might be considered a sixth family." He never said what you are accusing him of saying. Typical dumb westside. The Albanians pushing aside the Italians in America does not stem from Rudaj. It stems from the Albanians presence overall. When you have Albanians rising through partnerships and making their own organizations and go against the Italians. Normal people would think that they are pushing them aside. Even Junior Gotti's bodyguard was Albanian. Top assassins for the LCN are Albanian. High level associates are Albanian. Then you have Albanian groups shutting down their operations and going against them. Something the Chinese, Russians and Blacks never did.

Holy shit. Is there no end you won't go to try and squirm your way out of a situation where you are clearly wrong? No matter what interpretation you want to give it, Snelling called the Rudaj organization a "sixth family." Simply by dubbing them that, he was making a comparison to the five New York LCN families. It was a bogus statement, then and now.

The Albanian's presence overall is still less than any number of other groups. Any of those groups deserved to be called a "sixth family" before the Rudaj organization. And don't give me your lousy excuse that it was because the Rudaj gang was organized like an LCN family. It wasn't. And you keep talking about Albanians "going against" the Italians as if it has happened over and over again. I'll ask you once again -

Other than the Rudaj gang, where in the U.S. has an Albanian group ever gone against an Italian crime family? Answer the question.

Either list some other examples or quit talking as if it has been a general trend. It happened one time and, from that instance alone, came the single CNN article that said Albanians were "pushing aside" the Italians.

All you can do is list some cases that don't even apply to the argument and don't prove your case. Gotti Junior had an Albanian bodyguard? So what? He has had lots of bodyguards over the years. How does that show Albanians are pushing aside the Mafia? Albanians work as assassins for the mob? So what? People from various ethnic groups do heavy work for the LCN? How does that prove that Albanians are pushing aside the Mafia? Some Albanians are high-level associates? So what? There are some, like Mustafa. But how does that prove that Albanians are pushing aside the Mafia?

IGNORING WHAT? OMG LOL! WHAT AM I IGNORING? Give me one source that says the Albanians are not the top organization in Europe. What we both have is information on both groups. We have statements, sources, credits, etc... on both groups but only one of us has an official document saying loud and clear. The Albanian mafia dominates Western Europe. And I think we know that the Albanians are more powerful in Eastern Europe then the Italians. So its only common sense that the Albanians surpass the Italians in Europe. I mean they control heroin. Come on, not to mention their roles in other fields such as prostitution, robberies, car thefts, arms trafficking and human trafficking and legal investments.

An official document loud and clear? You posted a photo of a magazine that cited a Belgian police report that made that claim.

You keep trying to put the burden of proof on me. If anything, the burden of proof is on you to prove the Albanians (in only a little over a decade) have surpassed both the Italians and the Russians to become the most powerful crime syndicate in Europe. The idea is laughable. It's simply an impossiblity and you only think so because you want it to be true because you are Albanian.

I'll say it one last time. All three groups - Italians, Russians, Albanians - operate throughout Europe. The Italians are the strongest in Western Europe. The Russians are the strongest in Eastern Europe. The Albanians are the strongest in the Balkan region.

I bring him up because you know that Denaro stangled his girlfriend but you cant tell me a single thing about Agim Gashi, Aldo Bare, Princ Dobroshi, Behgjet Pacolli, Daut Kadriovski, Naser Dzelijiji, Viktor Hoxha, etc... You cant tell me how the Albanian mafia is set up or operates. You cant tell me any specifics of the Albanian mafia. The only time I have ever heard you give specifics on the Albanian mafia is when you copy and paste what the FBI says about Albanian organized crime in America. Then you accuse me of your so called "tunnel vision".

Italian bosses are far more well known than Albanian bosses. It's like comparing Vincent Gigante or John Gotti to Alex Rudaj. I may not know many of the specifics about Albanians, but that doesn't matter. I know where Albanian organized crime stands, both in Europe and the U.S., and while they are major players they don't hold the position you give them in either area.

[thewestside]

Multi-tonnes is how it is spelled. I have never heard of multiton. There is no definition for that word on the internet. Go look it up. While the Italians are probably involved in importing multi-tonne loads of cocaine and marijuana into the United States it still doesnt make them significant smugglers. They are behind the Mexicans, Asians, Cubans, Colombians. That article did proove me wrong on the Albanian stance in drug smuggling in America, thats all. But the Italians are right where I always thought they were. The reason they used multi-tonne as a reference to their importation is because they mentioned marijuana with cocaine. The Albanians smuggle multi-tonne loads of cocaine and marijuana into the United States. I can say that. In an RCMP report. Albanians are the only group that are mentioned by specific ethnicity when they were talking about marijuana distribution and transportation. They also mentioned Asians and Caucasian traffickers as well. So do you really think the Albanians are not bringing in more then 1000 pounds into America from Canada? Thats a tonne right there and the Albanians bring in alot more then that if they were mentioned in that report. So if I lump cocaine in with marijuana. I can say that the Albanians are bringing in multi-tonnes of cocaine and marijuana into the United States. You take that one little sentence and think of it how you want to. Your dreaming if you think the Italians are bringing in multi-tonnes of cocaine at one time into the United States. KEEP FCUKING DREAMING FACIULINA #2.

Regardless of how it was spelled, you know the meaning as well as I do. The Italians are involved in smuggling multiple tons of marijuana and cocaine into the U.S. The fact that they were mentioned in the report is proof enough that they are significant smugglers. Nobody is saying that they are as big as the other groups mentioned. Just face the fact that the report shows your claims that the Italians weren't involved in smuggling narcotics into the U.S. to a signicant degree as wrong.

Yes you have. Just the fact that you said I dont think so shows how much of a petty moron you are.

Said Mr. Hypocrite. Above, you can't even admit that you were wrong about Italians being signficant smugglers of narcotics in the U.S. Talk about petty. Show me specific cases where I've been wrong and I will admit to it.

He didnt 'dub them' the sixth family you moron. He said what we have here MIGHT be considered the sixth family. It was early. They didnt know the Rudaj organization membership numbers or anything. They didnt know whether or not Rudaj's organization would have been able to continue operations. He said might. Freaking moron.

It's truly astounding how far you will go to not admit that you were wrong. Of course they knew the Rudaj organization's membership but that has nothing to do with it. Try and squirm out of it all you want you little weasel, Snelling comment was an overstatement. It was wrong. End of story.

I am sure it has happened but we just dont know about it. Why else would a Genovese captain talk about such hate he has towards the Albanian gangsters for being stubborn and unable to negotiate? Alot of Albanian criminals in America work with the LCN. Some even work for. Rudaj was just an example of what would happen if the Italians provoked an Albanian crime group. Generally, the Italians dont do that.

LOL! Oh man, your arguments have truly sunken to a new low. You're "sure" it has happened? Where? When? Unless you can provide examples, quit saying it as fact! The comments of the Genovese captain showed he himself had disagreements with Albanians, in which case he inferred that you had to kill them, but that's it. That's hardly proof of your claims about Albanians pushing aside the Italians. The only example you have is the Rudaj organization and, as I've said before, that was an isolated example. If it wasn't, there would be at least one other. But there isn't!

It shows that Albanians are everywhere. They are in the highs and lows of the LCN organizations not to mention most of them are in their own groups through out the United States. Why would the LCN need Albanian assassins and bodyguards? Why dont they have Italian ones? You claim its because of heat and such. But they could use Italians that are outside the LCN right? Wrong. Because most Italian criminals are incapable of such things. The average LCN age is like 60.

The Albanians are everywhere? Another overstatement. How many times do I have to explain this to you? The LCN uses people from various ethnicities as muscle. It always has. The Albanians are no more different or special. The LCN still has plenty of Italian killers. Try reading the indictments to see how many Italian members and associates are indicted for everything from murder to assualt to kidnapping to arson. Gotti Junior had one Albanian bodyguard. So what? He's had many bodyguards over the years, including Italians.

The idea is impossible why? The Albanians control heroin. 80% of it coming into Europe in brought by the Albanians. Heroin is twice as profitable as cocaine. So if the Ndrangheta made 50bn last year from bringing in 80% of the cocaine then the Albanians made 100bn from bringing in 80% of the heroin right?

Prostitution, who leads it in Europe?

Arms trafficking? The Russians and Albanians both come before the Italians but there is no clear information for me to say which one of them is more active in the field.

Human trafficking in Europe? Albanians.

Car thefts? Again debatable between the Albanians and Russians but both come way before the Italians.

Robberies? Albanians.

I've also explained this before. What puts the Italians, as well as the Russians, over the Albanians in Europe is their involvement in legitimate industries. Also, you fail to mention that much of the smuggling operations of the Albanians (involving narcotics, arms, immigrants, etc.) is done in conjunction with Italian, Russian, and other groups. The Albanians may indeed be at the top in certain activities in certain areas of Europe but that by no means means they have replaced either the Italians or Russians as the the most powerful crime group there.

You dont know where the Albanians stand in either places. I had to tell you that the Albanian population in America was not 113,000. Which shows your ignorants to even the simplest things. I had to tell you who Daut Kadrvioski is. I had to tell you about Detroit. I had to tell you about Albanians in Canada. You claim you know of the Albanian mafia but I had to tell you 95% of everything you know about them. The only thing you say about the Albanains is what you copy and paste from the FBI on their Balkan organized crime sections.

You didn't tell me shit. 113,000 was the 2000 census estimate. You simply chose to go with the bigger estimate of 500,000 because it suited you better, no matter that the official didn't even list his source on that. You bring up certain specifics about the Albanians that I didn't know previously but nothing that in any way supports your outlandish claims about them in Europe, in the U.S., or around the world.

[thewestside]

I never said they arent involved in smuggling drugs. I said they are no where near as active as they were in the past. Keeping in mind that IOC is responsible for smuggling drugs alot more then LCN. And IOC's activities have grown in the past year so I claimed what was presented from law enforcement at the time. Notice how in the 2007 or 2008 report. The Italians are barely mentioned, both the LCN and IOC.

What the hell are you talking about? Go up several posts and you'll see me typing that I was wrong loud and clear about the Italians stance on drug smuggling in America. Technically I wasent even wrong because up until now, there has been no information claiming them to be even active importers of drugs. Read the 2007-2008 report.

Yes, you did say the Italians were not involved in smuggling narcotics into the U.S. Just because Italian groups weren't mentioned in the 2008 report doesn't mean there wasn't information about them. That's why I said none of it was really "new" news. Authoritites have been saying for years now that Italian OC groups continue to be involved in drug smuggling into the U.S., as well laundering the proceeds through investments in real estate and other business in conjunction with the American LCN. Albanians weren't mentioned in either report but that doesn't stop you from talking about their exploits in drug trafficking.

Ah your truely a fcuked up person... honestly. Snelling's comment was, "Your used to hearing about the Five families, well this must be the sixth". Like I said, the comment was more because Rudaj operated like a family. When you have over 30 members and they're acting and calling themselves the sixth family, dealing with the five families and set up like one. You look like a LCN family. Snelling also said, "They hoped that one day... they could become the Sixth Crime Family in New York". But you didnt read that because you were too busy reading about what some Italian mafia boss said to his kid 5 years ago at his baseball game while drinking mountain dew. Can you tell us what he was wearing as well?

The Rudaj organization no more "acted" like an LCN family than any number of other groups. Who cares if they considered themselves the "sixth family?" Hell, they couldn't even come up with an original name for themselves. They called themselves "The Corporation," even though that name had been used for years by Jose Battle's Cuban mob. But we're getting off the point here. And the point is, whatever he meant, Snelling made a vast overstatement in his reference to the Rudaj organization being a "sixth family." Just like the claim that the Albanians were "pushing aside" the Italian Mafia families was a vast overstatement. As I've said so many times, the same overstatements - by both some officials as well as the press - have been made in past decades with respect to other crime groups. It's nothing new and should be taken with a bucket of salt.

First of all, you need to quit calling Rudaj an isolated incident.

It's very simple genius. Until you can provide evidence of a single other case of any Albanians directly going against the LCN, the Rudaj organization was a isolated incident. The point is, you can't! But you just assume that Albanians are pushing aside the Italians in the U.S. because it sounds good to you.

It wasent, there isnt any information about other attempts on the LCN but there is.

There isn't any information about other attempt on the LCN but there is? Which one is it?

It hasent been made public because it wasent a whole group going against the higher ends of the LCN crime family. You wont hear about a smaller Albanian group doing this to a soldier in the Genovese crime family. But you would hear if an Albanian group goes against the entire family and wins.

You are going off pure speculation without anything to base it on. This is getting pathetic.

I didnt state it as a fact. But knowing the close relationships AOC and LCN have in America. Its only natural that there have been conflicts between the two.

Yes, there is a close relationship between the LCN and Albanians in the U.S. So why would there be conflicts between the two? As the evidence shows, Albanians have either worked with or for the LCN for the most part. The only case of record of any Albanians going against the LCN was the Rudaj organization, and even the leaders of that grouped worked for the LCN initially.

I never said the Albanians are pushing aside the Italians in America. I claimed they are emerging to be bigger then the LCN in North America. EMERGING! As in going too. Not have. Pushing aside means taking over their rackets which wont happen. they are just giving them competition comparatively by growing their own rackets in New York.

More backpeddling. You have repeatedly posted that CNN article that claimed the Albanians were "pushing aside" Italian Mafia families in the U.S., which must mean you agree with it, otherwise you wouldn't use it has evidence again and again. Likewise, there is no more evidence to support your claim (which is basically the same) that Albanians are "emerging" to be bigger than the LCN. Yes, the Albanians are emerging. But so are a lot of other groups. Various groups have "emerged" in past decades and many have claimed that they would supplant the LCN but it's never happened. There is nothing that shows the Albanians are any more special or will be different. Now, we all know you want the Albanians to take the top spot but that doesn't mean it will happen.

Why would it be an overstatement? Albanians are high level associates, mucle, low level associates, bodyguards, assassins. What more do you want? How would you define everywhere then?

Which makes them no different than LCN associates from other groups in the past. Albanians are just the latest group that the LCN uses to it's own ends for mutual profit.

I never denied that the Albanians work with the Italians in Europe. They probably work with the Russians too but I havent seen any big evidence of this but it is only natural that they would. What does that have to do with anything. Legitimate business? Thats what puts them over the Albanians? WOW! The Albanians are just as active in legitimate areas as well. Agim Gashi had entire companies in Austria, Milan, etc... he had lines of beuty parlors and other legitimate interests. And he was just one Albanian trafficker. Look at Behgjet Pacolli, his company laundered heroin money and what now? Its a global company. It operates in Cuba, Russia, Kazakh, Italy, Swizerland, Asia, America. The amount of contruction in Albania is at the same pace as Germany. over 95% of the construction is fueled by organized crime.

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think that Albanians are even close to the Italians or Russians in terms of legitimate business interests. All one has to do is look at the respective GDP's between the countries. Albania's GDP is about $20 billion. Italy and Russia's GDP's are each about $2 trillion. In other words, Albania's GDP is about 1% of that of Italy's or Russia's. It woudn't matter if Albanian organized crime controlled all of Albania's industries, it still wouldn't come close. Hell, estimates of the 'Ndrangheta's annual income alone is 2-3 times that of Albania's entire GDP. The Casalesi clan of the Camorra alone has total combined wealth in cash and assets of $20 billion, equaling the annual GDP of Albania.

What your forgetting is that the drug business comes way before the money stemming from legitimate businesses. The Albanian mafia invests in legitimate businesses just as much as both the Russians or Italians, look at the Bronx for an example or Sao Paulo, Germany which is a sector of Hamburg totally owned by the Albanian mafia, its sort of like Amsterdam, its the ideal place for drugs and prostitution. But when the Albanian mafia is generating over 100bn in heroin money annually, I tend to look at that before legitimate areas of the Albanian mafia.

Drug money, or profits from any other criminal activity, are virtually worthless unless they can be laundered. Of course the Albanians launder their money, just as every other OC group does, but they are nowhere close to having the extensive and entrenched interest in Europe's legitimate industries and banking systems that the Italians and Russians do. And where did you get that figure of $100 billion annually for the Albanians in heroin?

Well if you stop claiming you know everything even about my own people more then me we can stop arguing. The census that you gacve us, I told you to look at the total number the census came up with. The total population of America came to 232,000,000 according to that census and it stated 70 million as unknown. Is there 113,000 Albanians holding an American passport? Yes. Is there 113,000 Albanians in America period? No. The number is over 500,000. But again, because I proved you wrong, you choose to go nuts and claim what you feel like claiming instead.

I have never claimed to "know everything" about your people. I simply refute your bogus claims about Albanian organized crime. I agree that the 2000 census wouldn't have been able to document every single Albanian in the U.S. But that 500,000 figure, which you accept so readily, is just an estimate with no sources stated whatsoever.

[Faciulina]

Using a U.S. anti-drug trafficking law, Bush designated the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, and the 'Ndrangheta Organization subject to the sanctions

www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30314873.htm

ahahahahahaha read and suck moron the american goverment blames ndrangheta and pkk in the drug list why albanians are not mentioned? it's easy they DO NOT control 80% of heroin it's just your dream idiot the heroin is controlled more by ndrangheta and pkk in europe today the ndrangheta controls 90% of cocaine in europe canada and australia... the italian mafia has far more business than albaniass mob in europe just see gambling, constructions, waste disposal, money laundering, bets, exortions 80% of pizzeria's in germany are in mafia hands LOOOOOL the italians mafia is first in weapons traficking 40% of weapons pas trough calabrian ports gioia tauro last year police seized 50.000 AK-47 there ndrangheta supplied al-qaeda in the madrid attack in 2002 ahahahaha human traficking? albanians are nothing today protitution? romanians far surpass them today car theft and robberies? ahahahahaha since albanians are first in them moron shut up you are a big idiot italian mafia earn 170 billions and the albania coutry gdp is 20 billions italan mafia litterally could buy the whole albania so what are you talking about idiot?

[thewestside]

He didnt state them as a sixth family are you stupid? Go back and read his comment you fcuking moron! I am not explaing this to you again!

You don't need to explain it to me. You are just trying to explain it away so as not to have to admit that Snelling was wrong. Because if you admit that Snelling's statement was wrong, you also have to admit that the claims about Albanians "pushing aside" the Italians is wrong. But of course we both know you will never do that.

There is but it wasent published on the internet. Not every inch of AOC and LCN is published on the internet.

I'm asking for ANYTHING. Any information, be it from the internet, a book, hell even message pigeons will do! Provide ANY information whatsoever that there have been other Albanians besides the Rudaj gang that have taken on the LCN. YOU CANT BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. So quit trying to pretend there is but it's just not available because we both know you are lying. Once again you are making shit up because your arguments are not based on the facts.

Initially? Initially as in the start of their criminal career? Or as in the start of their organization? For the most part? For the most part of what? Most Albanian criminals work with other Albanian criminals who work from their Albanian ring leaders.

Initially, as in both Rudaj and Colletti were originally Gambino associates. For the most part, as in there are far more Albanians that work with or for the LCN than those who have fought against it, since there is only one group of record who has done that.

Well the FBI says otherwise. What group is emerging in the US? The Russians, Italians or Chinese? I have yet to hear of any of them emerging. The Albanian mafia is forming right now. The wave of Albanian immigration to the US started in 1997-1998, much later then in Europe because of the difficulty of getting to America illegally from across an entire ocean and through several countries. Only time will tell if the Albanians emerge to the point of exceeding their criminal counterparts in New York. Neither you or me can predict what will happen.

The Russians, Chinese, and Albanians are all considered emerging organized crime groups in the U.S. Law enforcement and the press often use the word "emerging" simply to differentiate the group they are talking about from "traditional organized crime," which is a synonym for La Cosa Nostra. I agree that nobody can ultimately predict what will happen. But they can make educated guesses, based on both historical precedent and the current available evidence. And as I've said many times, looking at history, many groups have been predicted to supplant the LCN over the years. It has never happened with any of them and there is no reason, except wishful thinking on your part, that the Albanians will be any different. The Albanians will certainly establish themselves and carve out their own piece of the American underworld, like other groups before them have, but they won't be able to become the top group due to any number of present day law enforcement, sociological, economic, and other reasons. As I've also said before, rather than one group taking the spot of La Cosa Nostra, the more likely scenario is simply that the LCN will be weakened to the point where it is like other groups and no one group will be completely dominant.

But we are not comparing GDp's between countries. While the Albanian mafia owns pratically every inch of Albania, their legitimate interest go past Albania, Kosova, Western Macedonia, Southern Montenegro in which the Albanian crime element is the only one caspable of producing businesses, construction, etc... in the areas. What about Greece, Sweden, North Italy, Bulgaria, Germany, Switzerland, the Albanian mafia has legitimate interests in every country they operate in. While Albania may be an extremely poor country, the level of construction there is unbelievable. There must be over $1bn worth of construction just in Albania every year not to mention other parts of Greater Albania.

Yes, there are Italian, Russian, and Albanian gangsters that have legitimate interests that extend beyond their borders. But the comparative level between the country's GDP's are indicative of the difference in size and scope between those legitimate interests.

I never argued who is more involved in legitimate interests because I do not know who is more active between the three groups. That is something only someone as dumb as you would do because you like to claim Italian supremecy over everything. Just out of curiosity how do you know the Albanians are involved in the legitimate fields just as much as the Italians or Russians?

I have never claimed Italian supremacy over everything. Once again, you are making up a false argument and attributing it to me. Albanian organized crime, generally speaking, is not as "evolved" as Italian and Russian organized crime. And that can be said both in Europe and the U.S. While Albanians may have great political and business influence within the rather small and inconsquential country of Albania, elsewhere for the most part their operations are mainly the typical "blue collar," purely criminal rackets.

From an article I brought in on another thread. The reporter claimed the Albanian mafia earned 38 billion in 1999 just on drug smuggling while three years later in 2002 they earned 70 billion. Its not 2009, I am trying to be reasonable and say 100bn. If they can increase revenues up by 32 billion in three years, they can increase activities by another 30bn in seven years.

Oh I see, you read one article that quoted a figure from 2002, and then just took the liberty of adding your own guesses for 2009 to come up with $100 billion and then presented it as fact.

[CheGuevara]

Code: Select all

You don't need to explain it to me.  You are just trying to explain it away so as not to have to admit that Snelling was wrong.  Because if you admit that Snelling's statement was wrong, you also have to admit that the claims about Albanians "pushing aside" the Italians is wrong.  But of course we both know you will never do that.

What Fred Snelling said and what Chris Swecker's division of the FBI said has nothing to do with each other. I think your getting a little light headed in your old age.

I'm asking for ANYTHING. Any information, be it from the internet, a book, hell even message pigeons will do! Provide ANY information whatsoever that there have been other Albanians besides the Rudaj gang that have taken on the LCN. YOU CANT BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. So quit trying to pretend there is but it's just not available because we both know you are lying. Once again you are making shit up because your arguments are not based on the facts.

That is something that cannot be determined. Knowing the close relationship Albanian organized crime groups have with LCN crime groups in America. There could have easily been small conflicts that would not be put up on the internet. Also, there might even be information on other more minor conflicts between the two sides on the internet. You never know until you know.

Yes, there are Italian, Russian, and Albanian gangsters that have legitimate interests that extend beyond their borders. But the comparative level between the country's GDP's are indicative of the difference in size and scope between those legitimate interests.

This is where your ignorance ruins our arguments. In Albania, 1,000,000 tourists came into the country in 2007. Now lets start with a conservative amount. Let's say 300,000 of them spent 1,000 USD. If they do that, every single dollar will be going into the hands of the Albanian mafia unless they go buy food from some local farmers. If they shop, fill up on gas, rent a hotel suite, use an umbrella at the beach. They are paying the Albanian mafia. Now you know as well as I do, that people wont just spend $1,000 USD on a vacation but even if they low budgeted it and did. They would be giving the Albanian mafia $300,000,000 a year. What also has to be mentioned here is that the people of Albania are paying the Albanian mafia as well. Everytime they do their hair, rent a house, go into a hotel, go into a club, eat at a restaurant, etc... You can imagine the profits anually. But even moreso. You have to keep in mind that the Albanian mafia is based overseas for the most part and it invests into Europe as well. Read about Agim Gashi for example. The guy opened companies in Austria, Italy, Germany, he opened beauty shop lines and other businesses all over the place. You cant just say that Albania is much poorer then Italy so the Italian mafia invests into legal ventures more. Those are two totally different arguments. Who invests more into legal ventures I do not know. There is no clear information on it to give an opinion. The only thing I can state is that the Albanian mafia's legal side should not be taken lightly at all.

I have never claimed Italian supremacy over everything. Once again, you are making up a false argument and attributing it to me. Albanian organized crime, generally speaking, is not as "evolved" as Italian and Russian organized crime. And that can be said both in Europe and the U.S. While Albanians may have great political and business influence within the rather small and inconsquential country of Albania, elsewhere for the most part their operations are mainly the typical "blue collar," purely criminal rackets.

The Albanians invest and wield power throughout the EU as well. Here you go again comparing Albania to Italy. That comparison has nothing to do with each other.

Oh I see, you read one article that quoted a figure from 2002, and then just took the liberty of adding your own guesses for 2009 to come up with $100 billion and then presented it as fact.

So basically what your saying is... you can make assumptions but I cannot? You assumed the Italian mafia has businesses in times square based on the past correct? Well I assumed that if the Albanian mafia increased their revenues in drug trafficking by 32 billion in three short years [1999-2002 when they started gaining hold of European heroin] they could increase it by another 30 billion 7 years after that. Honestly, is that not reasonable?

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_re ... ab5105.pdf

In the Organized Crime Program, we're conducting operations both at home and overseas. We're particularly going after Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises, which may already number in the thousands in the U.S. These groups are exceptionally brutal and are forming alliances with La Cosa Nostra families. In some instances they're even challenging them for control. They're involved in murders, bank and ATM burglaries, passport and visa fraud, illegal gambling, weapons and narcotics trafficking, and extortion. To get at the group's base of operations overseas before it becomes entrenched here, we are placing Agents in Eastern Europe to work hand-in-hand with local law enforcement.

[thewestside]

What Fred Snelling said and what Chris Swecker's division of the FBI said has nothing to do with each other. I think your getting a little light headed in your old age.

First, why the new name? This is your 5th name now. JohnnyRed.....AlbaniaUnited.....TheEastSide.....Egotistical....CheGuevara.

It was you who brought up Chris Swecker. Not me. The topic is Snelling's statement and no matter what version you want to go by, or how much some people try to read into it their own interpretation, it was essentially drawing a parallel to the five New York LCN families by labeling the Rudaj organization as a "sixth family." Time has shown that to be a rather major overstatement.

That is something that cannot be determined. Knowing the close relationship Albanian organized crime groups have with LCN crime groups in America. There could have easily been small conflicts that would not be put up on the internet. Also, there might even be information on other more minor conflicts between the two sides on the internet. You never know until you know.

Exactly, we don't know. So it does no good to go into hypothetical scenarios. A lot of things "could be" or "could have happened" but what holds weight is only the available evidence that can proven. You like to cling to a CNN report that stated the Albanians are "pushing aside" the Italian crime families in the U.S. This claim stemmed from the Rudaj organization. And if such were the case, that the Albanians were pushing the Italians aside, surely there would be other accounts of conflicts between the two groups. But you can't find a single other one besides the Rudaj gang, which is now defunct. In short, it was the typical overstatement that has often been made about any number of groups in previous decades.

This is where your ignorance ruins our arguments. In Albania, 1,000,000 tourists came into the country in 2007. Now lets start with a conservative amount. Let's say 300,000 of them spent 1,000 USD. If they do that, every single dollar will be going into the hands of the Albanian mafia unless they go buy food from some local farmers. If they shop, fill up on gas, rent a hotel suite, use an umbrella at the beach. They are paying the Albanian mafia. Now you know as well as I do, that people wont just spend $1,000 USD on a vacation but even if they low budgeted it and did. They would be giving the Albanian mafia $300,000,000 a year. What also has to be mentioned here is that the people of Albania are paying the Albanian mafia as well. Everytime they do their hair, rent a house, go into a hotel, go into a club, eat at a restaurant, etc... You can imagine the profits anually. But even moreso. You have to keep in mind that the Albanian mafia is based overseas for the most part and it invests into Europe as well. Read about Agim Gashi for example. The guy opened companies in Austria, Italy, Germany, he opened beauty shop lines and other businesses all over the place. You cant just say that Albania is much poorer then Italy so the Italian mafia invests into legal ventures more. Those are two totally different arguments. Who invests more into legal ventures I do not know. There is no clear information on it to give an opinion. The only thing I can state is that the Albanian mafia's legal side should not be taken lightly at all.

Nobody is taking the Albanian mob's legitimate interests lightly. It's just that, if you had any comprehesion of the legitimate interests of the Italians and Russians, you would know the Albanians simply don't compare.

So basically what your saying is... you can make assumptions but I cannot? You assumed the Italian mafia has businesses in times square based on the past correct? Well I assumed that if the Albanian mafia increased their revenues in drug trafficking by 32 billion in three short years [1999-2002 when they started gaining hold of European heroin] they could increase it by another 30 billion 7 years after that. Honestly, is that not reasonable?

How many times have I explained this to you now? And you still don't get it. I rarely make assumptions. But when I do, I at least make it on some supporting evidence, as well as state that it is my assumption. You routinely make assumptions right and left and state them as fact. In the case here, I made an assumption about a rather small matter - the likely possibility that there were still some mob-owned and/or mob-connected businesses in Times Square based on the fact that there have been for decades. You made your assumption about something much bigger - the multi-billion heroin profits of the Albanians - by which you simply threw in your own figures bases on nothing more than guesswork. And no, that is not reasonable.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usab5105.pdf

In the Organized Crime Program, we're conducting operations both at home and overseas. We're particularly going after Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises, which may already number in the thousands in the U.S. These groups are exceptionally brutal and are forming alliances with La Cosa Nostra families. In some instances they're even challenging them for control. They're involved in murders, bank and ATM burglaries, passport and visa fraud, illegal gambling, weapons and narcotics trafficking, and extortion. To get at the group's base of operations overseas before it becomes entrenched here, we are placing Agents in Eastern Europe to work hand-in-hand with local law enforcement.

"Which may already number in the thousands in the U.S." Also note that it is referring to Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises. And once again, there are many Balkan groups, including the Albanians. And once again, unless you want to count the exploits of the Rudaj organization as multiple instances, there is only one Albanian group of record that has "challenged" the LCN for control. And that challenge was hardly in a general sense. It involved exactly two Greek gambling clubs in Queens. Well, unless you also want to count John Gotti's old table at Rao's, which we know you do.

[CheGuevara]

First, why the new name? This is your 5th name now. JohnnyRed.....AlbaniaUnited.....TheEastSide.....Egotistical....CheGuevara.

Well if you could stop snitching me out to the admin everytime you have no argument left. I wouldnt have to make a new one. I find it funny though how I get banned while your making threads that have nothing to do with organized crime.

It was you who brought up Chris Swecker. Not me. The topic is Snelling's statement and no matter what version you want to go by, or how much some people try to read into it their own interpretation, it was essentially drawing a parallel to the five New York LCN families by labeling the Rudaj organization as a "sixth family." Time has shown that to be a rather major overstatement.

You said, by Snelling being wrong. The CNN article would be wrong. Snelling's comment and what the FBI division under Chris Swecker said are two totally different things. That is what I brought up.

Exactly, we don't know. So it does no good to go into hypothetical scenarios. A lot of things "could be" or "could have happened" but what holds weight is only the available evidence that can proven. You like to cling to a CNN report that stated the Albanians are "pushing aside" the Italian crime families in the U.S. This claim stemmed from the Rudaj organization. And if such were the case, that the Albanians were pushing the Italians aside, surely there would be other accounts of conflicts between the two groups. But you can't find a single other one besides the Rudaj gang, which is now defunct. In short, it was the typical overstatement that has often been made about any number of groups in previous decades.

Fair enough. You have your opinion. I have mine.

Nobody is taking the Albanian mob's legitimate interests lightly. It's just that, if you had any comprehesion of the legitimate interests of the Italians and Russians, you would know the Albanians simply don't compare.

Lol. If there was enough information on the Albanian mafia. You would know that the Albanian mafia would compare.

How many times have I explained this to you now? And you still don't get it. I rarely make assumptions. But when I do, I at least make it on some supporting evidence, as well as state that it is my assumption. You routinely make assumptions right and left and state them as fact. In the case here, I made an assumption about a rather small matter - the likely possibility that there were still some mob-owned and/or mob-connected businesses in Times Square based on the fact that there have been for decades. You made your assumption about something much bigger - the multi-billion heroin profits of the Albanians - by which you simply threw in your own figures bases on nothing more than guesswork. And no, that is not reasonable.

Okay, the fact that the Albanian mafia increased revenue by 32 billion IN THREE YEARS during their early years of taking over the heroin market should be enough to reasonably predict they could increase another $30bn in 7 years. Its seems you want others to play by rules you make up but dont follow them yourself.

"Which may already number in the thousands in the U.S." Also note that it is referring to Balkan and Albanian criminal enterprises. And once again, there are many Balkan groups, including the Albanians. And once again, unless you want to count the exploits of the Rudaj organization as multiple instances, there is only one Albanian group of record that has "challenged" the LCN for control. And that challenge was hardly in a general sense. It involved exactly two Greek gambling clubs in Queens. Well, unless you also want to count John Gotti's old table at Rao's, which we know you do.

You see this is your problem. I merely copy and paste what the government says when you ask me to repeat something I said by their sources [thousands of members thing] and then for some reason get mad at me for doing so. I am not the one who keeps stating this. The FBI and government are. Have you ever thought that maybe they are talking about other instances?

Also, when they say Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises. They usually mean Albanian, Kosovar, Macedonian and Montenegrin Albanians. Those three last groups hold Yugoslavian passports. Not Albanian ones. Thats is why the destinction is sometimes made. I just read an article on that. The FBI said sometimes, we dont even know we have arrested Albanians due to the unfamiliarity we have with Albanian names and being as some of them have Slavic last names. Like that human smuggling group from Windsor for example. They arrested over 20 Albanians but they didnt call it an Albanian human trafficking ring because they didnt know they were Albanian. Albanian criminals have been arrested even in Alaska did you know that? But no clear distinction was made on what they were so it just passed by us.

[thewestside]

Well if you could stop snitching me out to the admin everytime you have no argument left. I wouldnt have to make a new one. I find it funny though how I get banned while your making threads that have nothing to do with organized crime.

I have never "snitched" you out to anybody. I have never spoken to a single moderator about you. Maybe some people just get sick of your BS. Ever considered that possibility?

You said, by Snelling being wrong. The CNN article would be wrong. Snelling's comment and what the FBI division under Chris Swecker said are two totally different things. That is what I brought up.

OK, I see what you are saying now. Snelling's trying to draw a parallel between the five New York LCN families and the Rudaj organization, as a "sixth family," was a vast overstatement. As for the CNN article (link below) that quotes Swecker, take a closer look. In the heading it says "threatening to displace La Cosa Nostra families." Here, like a number of your articles based in Europe, these statements are purely hypothetical. Completely open-ended. What "could" happen. Not what "will" happen or is "now" happening. "Threatening to displace...." "Prepared to go to war...." Etc. It is important, rather than just taking these statements and running because they sound good, to examine them more closely and see what they are based on and if events afterward prove them to be true. "Threatening to displace" the LCN as the new kingpins of crime is a big statement. Not unlike many statements that have been made about previous groups. And as I've said again and again, if the Albanians really were such a threat, there would be mor supporting evidence of them taking on the LCN specifically or having more of a presence in the U.S. generally.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/18/alban ... index.html

Fair enough. You have your opinion. I have mine.

OK, but is your opinion based more on a real objective look at the evidence at hand or simply wishful thinking?

Okay, the fact that the Albanian mafia increased revenue by 32 billion IN THREE YEARS during their early years of taking over the heroin market should be enough to reasonably predict they could increase another $30bn in 7 years. Its seems you want others to play by rules you make up but dont follow them yourself.

I follow my own rules. Once again, I rarely make assumptions or go on guesswork, which you do fairly reguarly. But when I do, I state that I am making an assumption. And even then, I only make the assumption based on prior evidence. And, it's usually on a relatively small matter. Just because heroin revenue raised by X number of dollars over a certain time period, and then by Y number of dollars over a second time period, doesn't mean that you can install your own figure of Z number of dollars for a third time period and then present it as a fact. Even you have to see the difference in making an assumption about something relatively simple as there being some mob business in Times Square and throwing your own numbers into the billions of heroin dollars going into the Albanian mob's coffers.

You see this is your problem. I merely copy and paste what the government says when you ask me to repeat something I said by their sources [thousands of members thing] and then for some reason get mad at me for doing so. I am not the one who keeps stating this. The FBI and government are. Have you ever thought that maybe they are talking about other instances?

I have to do this because you so often misrepresent and misinterpret what reports, articles, etc. say. In this case, I wanted to point out that the report said "may" be thousands of members. And why did I do this? Because previously you stated as a fact that there "are" thousands of members. And not only that, you didn't specify that the report was referring to all Balkan gruops. You said that there are thousands of Albanian OC members. This is a classic, textbook case of how you read into things what you want and why I have to correct you.

Also, when they say Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises. They usually mean Albanian, Kosovar, Macedonian and Montenegrin Albanians. Those three last groups hold Yugoslavian passports. Not Albanian ones. Thats is why the destinction is sometimes made. I just read an article on that. The FBI said sometimes, we dont even know we have arrested Albanians due to the unfamiliarity we have with Albanian names and being as some of them have Slavic last names. Like that human smuggling group from Windsor for example. They arrested over 20 Albanians but they didnt call it an Albanian human trafficking ring because they didnt know they were Albanian. Albanian criminals have been arrested even in Alaska did you know that? But no clear distinction was made on what they were so it just passed by us.

I'm not sure why they differentiated between Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises since Albania is certainly a Balkan country. The Albanians are certainly the most prominent of the Balkan OC groups in the U.S. but they are a Balkan group nonetheless and are usually referred to as such, along with groups from every other Balkan country.

[CheGuevara]

I have never "snitched" you out to anybody. I have never spoken to a single moderator about you. Maybe some people just get sick of your BS. Ever considered that possibility?

How can I be banned for not agreeing with you? Its you and Teekay who keep complaing to have me banned. I am not the one making threads about Albanian criminals ordering goat cheese at Raos. My question is, why havent you been banned yet?

OK, I see what you are saying now. Snelling's trying to draw a parallel between the five New York LCN families and the Rudaj organization, as a "sixth family," was a vast overstatement. As for the CNN article (link below) that quotes Swecker, take a closer look. In the heading it says "threatening to displace La Cosa Nostra families." Here, like a number of your articles based in Europe, these statements are purely hypothetical. Completely open-ended. What "could" happen. Not what "will" happen or is "now" happening. "Threatening to displace...." "Prepared to go to war...." Etc. It is important, rather than just taking these statements and running because they sound good, to examine them more closely and see what they are based on and if events afterward prove them to be true. "Threatening to displace" the LCN as the new kingpins of crime is a big statement. Not unlike many statements that have been made about previous groups. And as I've said again and again, if the Albanians really were such a threat, there would be mor supporting evidence of them taking on the LCN specifically or having more of a presence in the U.S. generally.

The Albanian OC presence is very big in America. You just have not looked at it hard enough because you generally dont care. The CNN article said they are threatening to replace the Italians as kingpins of organized crime in America. Did they lie? No. Will it happen. That is not known. We just have to sit back and watch what happens. Until then, neither I or you have an argument about this.

But just answer me this. If it wasent for me. Would you know about Albanians in Canada, Ermira Hatija, Daut Kadriovski, The Windsor group, Lulzim Kupi, Detroit?

OK, but is your opinion based more on a real objective look at the evidence at hand or simply wishful thinking?

No. My thinking comes from the fact that I know much more then you about Albanian OC. Alot of people are very ignorant about Albanian OC including you which results in you lowering the stance of the Albanian mafia's position around the world.

I follow my own rules. Once again, I rarely make assumptions or go on guesswork, which you do fairly reguarly. But when I do, I state that I am making an assumption. And even then, I only make the assumption based on prior evidence. And, it's usually on a relatively small matter. Just because heroin revenue raised by X number of dollars over a certain time period, and then by Y number of dollars over a second time period, doesn't mean that you can install your own figure of Z number of dollars for a third time period and then present it as a fact. Even you have to see the difference in making an assumption about something relatively simple as there being some mob business in Times Square and throwing your own numbers into the billions of heroin dollars going into the Albanian mob's coffers.

I only did this because while I cannot give an exact number. I can assure you that the Albanian mafia increased their drug smuggling operations after 2002. 1999 was the start of things. In Three years they increased revenue up to $32bn. The Albanian mafia has only increased their activities in drug smuggling in both heroin and cocaine especially due to their close link with the Calabrians and the expansion of cocaine into Europe.

I have to do this because you so often misrepresent and misinterpret what reports, articles, etc. say. In this case, I wanted to point out that the report said "may" be thousands of members. And why did I do this? Because previously you stated as a fact that there "are" thousands of members. And not only that, you didn't specify that the report was referring to all Balkan gruops. You said that there are thousands of Albanian OC members. This is a classic, textbook case of how you read into things what you want and why I have to correct you.

I already explained this to you. Balkan organized crime is pretty much Albanian organized crime. The FBI describes it using the Kanun on its website. Your friend the Kanun was written by Lek Dukagjini in the 15th century for Albanians. They state there might be thousands of Albanian and Balkan OC members because they are lost when it comes to Albanian OC in general. They have no hard numbers because they cannot penetrate the gangs.

I'm not sure why they differentiated between Albanian and Balkan criminal enterprises since Albania is certainly a Balkan country. The Albanians are certainly the most prominent of the Balkan OC groups in the U.S. but they are a Balkan group nonetheless and are usually referred to as such, along with groups from every other Balkan country.

They differentiated for the same reason to why they sometimes differentiate Russian groups from Eurasian ones. Because its the strongest. But like I said, more then half the Albanians in the Balkans live outside Albania. Over 500,000 in Macedonia, 2,000,000 in Kosovo, Albanians from Montenegro which number alot in America. And Albanians from Greece. This is why sometimes they criss cross names and groups when talking about Albanian OC. When you have guys like Daut Kadriovski who is Albanian but has a slav last name. You tend to get confused. Or when you have a group of Albanians being caught but three of them have Serbian last names and two have Albanian last names. You tend to get confused and call them Yugoslavian criminals much like they call Ukrainian criminals Russian when they are actaully something else. The FBI is generally confused about Albanian OC right now. Especially since the group just recently showed up.

[thewestside]

How can I be banned for not agreeing with you? Its you and Teekay who keep complaing to have me banned. I am not the one making threads about Albanian criminals ordering goat cheese at Raos. My question is, why havent you been banned yet?

I really don't know. Ask the moderators. I do know one thing though, I haven't pissed off a lot of people like you have.

The Albanian OC presence is very big in America. You just have not looked at it hard enough because you generally dont care. The CNN article said they are threatening to replace the Italians as kingpins of organized crime in America. Did they lie? No. Will it happen. That is not known. We just have to sit back and watch what happens. Until then, neither I or you have an argument about this.

I have a very good understanding of the presence of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. Just as importantly, I have a good understanding of other ethnic gruops that preceded them. And I see no real difference between the Albanians and them. The same predictions were made of other groups as the Albanians now. It wasn't a case of officials or the media intentionally lying. It was simply what they have always done. Overstated the position of the newest crime group on the scene. Once again, my argment rests on historical precedent. Your argument rests on wishful thinking.

But just answer me this. If it wasent for me. Would you know about Albanians in Canada, Ermira Hatija, Daut Kadriovski, The Windsor group, Lulzim Kupi, Detroit?

I had read about a couple of them before. I'm sure you will continue to bring a number of "specifics" to my (and the board's) attention about Albanian organized crime. But none of it has any bearing on the state of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. in general.

No. My thinking comes from the fact that I know much more then you about Albanian OC. Alot of people are very ignorant about Albanian OC including you which results in you lowering the stance of the Albanian mafia's position around the world.

You may know about more specifics but they certainly don't prove your general claims about Albanian organized crime.

I only did this because while I cannot give an exact number. I can assure you that the Albanian mafia increased their drug smuggling operations after 2002. 1999 was the start of things. In Three years they increased revenue up to $32bn. The Albanian mafia has only increased their activities in drug smuggling in both heroin and cocaine especially due to their close link with the Calabrians and the expansion of cocaine into Europe.

Well, until you can find exacty figures, try and forego making up your own.

[CheGuevara]

I really don't know. Ask the moderators. I do know one thing though, I haven't pissed off a lot of people like you have.

Who are these people you keep talking about? Are you talking about my Johnnyred days? Yeah I agree, I pissed off alot of people back then. I created AlbaniaUnited to start a serious discussion on here. Thats around the time you came. Before that, it was a bunch of people who were totally ignorant talking. When you came I wanted to start fresh and actually debate.

I have a very good understanding of the presence of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. Just as importantly, I have a good understanding of other ethnic gruops that preceded them. And I see no real difference between the Albanians and them. The same predictions were made of other groups as the Albanians now. It wasn't a case of officials or the media intentionally lying. It was simply what they have always done. Overstated the position of the newest crime group on the scene. Once again, my argment rests on historical precedent. Your argument rests on wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking? By saying sit back and we'll see? The FBI didnt overstate because they havent said anything yet. They said they are threatening to replace the Italians. A threat is usually something that will take place in the future. Until we get to the future. We both have to stop making out own movies of what will happen.

I had read about a couple of them before. I'm sure you will continue to bring a number of "specifics" to my (and the board's) attention about Albanian organized crime. But none of it has any bearing on the state of Albanian organized crime in the U.S. in general.

See. Now you are just plain lying. You didnt hear about any of them before I told you.

You may know about more specifics but they certainly don't prove your general claims about Albanian organized crime.

I havent said anything about Albanian organized crime. I state that when the Albanian passport becomes free to the world. The Albanian mafia will maximise in the United States as well as in the rest of the world. I said it might surpass the Italians in America when it happens. Until it happens. The only thing I am saying it that it "might".

Well, until you can find exacty figures, try and forego making up your own.

Same goes to you.