Velasquez:Santos, Pacquiao:Marquez

[MCD]

Put your vote in or speak on the fight if you come in late. I think Santos might overwhelm Cain tonight, and unless Marquez can dig real freakin deep Pacquiao is gonna rip him up, maybe even knock him out but Marquez is tough so I won't predict a KO.

I'll say Santos in Rd 4
Pacquiao unanimous decision

[oso1]

Put your vote in or speak on the fight if you come in late. I think Santos might overwhelm Cain tonight, and unless Marquez can dig real freakin deep Pacquiao is gonna rip him up, maybe even knock him out but Marquez is tough so I won't predict a KO.

I'll say Santos in Rd 4
Pacquiao unanimous decision

I'm not too familiar with Dos Santos, so I can't make a prediction on his fight with Cain.

As for Pac vs Marquez, Pac should have this hands down. Another BS catch weight, and JMM almost 40 years old, this fight is all Pacquioa. I'm rooting for Marquez for the upset though.

Pac stops Marquez, mid to late rounds.

[MCD]

Put your vote in or speak on the fight if you come in late. I think Santos might overwhelm Cain tonight, and unless Marquez can dig real freakin deep Pacquiao is gonna rip him up, maybe even knock him out but Marquez is tough so I won't predict a KO.

I'll say Santos in Rd 4
Pacquiao unanimous decision

I'm not too familiar with Dos Santos, so I can't make a prediction on his fight with Cain.

As for Pac vs Marquez, Pac should have this hands down. Another BS catch weight, and JMM almost 40 years old, this fight is all Pacquioa. I'm rooting for Marquez for the upset though.

Pac stops Marquez, mid to late rounds.

I probably posted this thread too late, but I watched both fights.

First off, Velasquez v Dos Santos: Wow what a dud for Dana White and the UFC. This was supposed to be the big showcase for MMA worldwide and after all that hype it was over in 60 seconds. The first hit Cain took didn't look too bad but tipped him over. Then it looked like Dos Santos got a hold of his free hand and just took his guard away. Once the ref sees your head bouncing off the canvas with no guard its over. Cain looked like he was about to get on his feet but it was too late.

Now Pacquiao v Marquez that was a real good fight. I think Juan Manuel blew everyone away, and like I said I didn't fall into the Pacquiao KO BS, I think the people who vote on fight results don't know shit about boxing, because HBO saw 66% of people saying Pacman would knock him out. Marquez is too smart and tough for that.

Marquez looked real quick and his jabs and counters were killin Manny, who looked totally out of sync. I think Marquez' body shots were rippin him up because he had no speed and wasn't laying the combos on him.You could tell Manny was getting frustrated, Marquez just outsmarted him.

I don't know what Lederman was smoking but his scoring was BS, so was the judges. Technically, Marquez WON that fight, but when you're fighting a champ with a $100 million payday coming up in May, you have to win CONVINCINGLY and Marquez didnt do that. Just for that it should have been a DRAW.

Did anyone see Pacquiao with Kellerman? He looked stunned, like he's pissed he couldn't tear up marquez. If he starts doubtin himself he's not gonna beat Mayweather in May, I think Floyd's smiling his ass off right now, because he's a counter-puncher too and Manny looked totally incapable of overcoming Marquez' counter. And i'm really not looking forward to the gayweather fan boys celebrating a victory over Manny.

[~J~]

Just watched the fight, boxing politics at its best! Marquez was robbed once again. he boxed beautify with exceptional footwork, solid jabs and body shots. countering with rights and combinations. Pacquiao basically couldn't find Marquez all fight. here's the feed below if anyone wants to catch the fight before it gets taken down.

[oso1]

A few years ago, judging by Juans performance against Mayweather, when he weighed in, in the low 140's He looked horrible. I thought this time, Juan's age and the weight gain would hinder his performance against Pac. Boy did he prove me wrong. Much respect to Marquez. He did a great job of keeping Pac of balance and countering him, pretty much like he did in his first two fight, except no knockdowns.

[MCD]

Just watched the fight, boxing politics at its best! Marquez was robbed once again. he boxed beautify with exceptional footwork, solid jabs and body shots. countering with rights and combinations. Pacquiao basically couldn't find Marquez all fight. here's the feed below if anyone wants to catch the fight before it gets taken down.

Yeah they already took it down. But that's the quirk about championship boxing matches, the challenger has to KO the champ or win convincingly. Marquez won but probably by 2 points. It's definitely not enough to overcome the politics and $200 million combined payday for Pacquiao v Mayweather.

A few years ago, judging by Juans performance against Mayweather, when he weighed in, in the low 140's He looked horrible. I thought this time, Juan's age and the weight gain would hinder his performance against Pac. Boy did he prove me wrong. Much respect to Marquez. He did a great job of keeping Pac of balance and countering him, pretty much like he did in his first two fight, except no knockdowns.

I missed the weigh in vs Mayweather, but Marquez looked in good shape but he slowed down towards the 9th round. But yeah, Pacquiao was almost helpless against that counter, he was gettin tagged everytime he went for a combination. Marquez should have used the jab more because it was killing Manny and would have won him more points, but he started attacking and thats when Manny got his in.

[oso1]

Just watched the fight, boxing politics at its best! Marquez was robbed once again. he boxed beautify with exceptional footwork, solid jabs and body shots. countering with rights and combinations. Pacquiao basically couldn't find Marquez all fight. here's the feed below if anyone wants to catch the fight before it gets taken down.

Yeah they already took it down. But that's the quirk about championship boxing matches, the challenger has to KO the champ or win convincingly. Marquez won but probably by 2 points. It's definitely not enough to overcome the politics and $200 million combined payday for Pacquiao v Mayweather.

A few years ago, judging by Juans performance against Mayweather, when he weighed in, in the low 140's He looked horrible. I thought this time, Juan's age and the weight gain would hinder his performance against Pac. Boy did he prove me wrong. Much respect to Marquez. He did a great job of keeping Pac of balance and countering him, pretty much like he did in his first two fight, except no knockdowns.

I missed the weigh in vs Mayweather, but Marquez looked in good shape but he slowed down towards the 9th round. But yeah, Pacquiao was almost helpless against that counter, he was gettin tagged everytime he went for a combination. Marquez should have used the jab more because it was killing Manny and would have won him more points, but he started attacking and thats when Manny got his in.

When JMM weighed in against Mayweather, you could see he looked smooth, pudgy around his mid section. Now when JMM weighed in against Pac, you could clearly see his abdominal muscles, he looked really fit. The difference this time is, JMM hired a nutritionist and strength conditioning coach. He learned his lesson from when he fought Floyd. So for those who viewed the fight, how did you score it? I had it 9 rounds for Marquez and 3 rounds for Pac.

[MCD]

Yeah I hear he cut out the urine drinking. I had it 7-5. The 1st round didn't have much action but if I remember right Marquez landed more punches and had an edge in accuracy.

Lederman started losing his marbles at Rd 7 or 8, his decisions made no sense. Besides, if you look at each of their faces post-fight it's obvious who lost.

[oso1]

Besides, if you look at each of their faces post-fight it's obvious who lost.

So true huh. So Joshua Clottey must have won when he fought Pac then right? After the fight was over, Clottey didn't have a mark on him, where as Pac's eye was swollen. Listen @1:30 of the video



Another example is Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Ceasar Chavez. Taylor, who looked all busted up, was clearly winning the fight, until Chavez finally caught him in the last seconds of round 12.

[alexalonso]

Juan Manuel Marquez was on point, with those combinations and powerful counter punches. Lederman card was way off, Marquez probably won 7-5 or it was a tie, 6-6, but two judges gave it to Pacman, I would watch them fight again.

[MCD]

Besides, if you look at each of their faces post-fight it's obvious who lost.

So true huh. So Joshua Clottey must have won when he fought Pac then right? After the fight was over, Clottey didn't have a mark on him, where as Pac's eye was swollen. Listen @1:30 of the video

Another example is Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Ceasar Chavez. Taylor, who looked all busted up, was clearly winning the fight, until Chavez finally caught him in the last seconds of round 12.

Please don't be so naive. I'm talking about PACQUIAO V MARQUEZ not Clottey v Pacquiao. Yes I'm aware of something called the body shot and scoring, and appearance isn't the only factor in who won a fight.

Juan Manuel Marquez was on point, with those combinations and powerful counter punches. Lederman card was way off, Marquez probably won 7-5 or it was a tie, 6-6, but two judges gave it to Pacman, I would watch them fight again.

I would watch it too, and Kellerman hinted at a 4th fight but Marquez is getting so old, it would have to happen soon. Pacquiao is already 32 or 33 as well. We're on the verge of moving into the next generation of welterweights.

I watched the face-off between Cotto and Margarito after the fight, and the first thing Cotto does is bust out an iPad picture of Margarito's wraps, haha. But my friend brought up something I never considered, that the opposing teams corner inspects and signs off on the other fighters wraps. There's been a few fighters that got away with packing over the years but I'm still looking forward to that fight.

[Quepolo3]

@MCD- Why do you hate Mayweather so much mane, he's a great fighter. The thing that stands out to me, was when Mayweather fought Marquez he seemed much bigger than Marquez and throughout the fight he was able to push Marquez around more than he typically does in a fight. I know that when the fight happens, Mayweather and Pacquio are going to be in incredible shape. Also I thought that Marquez pulled an upset against Pacquio and was cheated. Reminded me of the Winky Wright vs. Fernando Vargas fight when they were young fighters. Winky clearly out jabbed and countered vargas but vargas was given the decision because he was the rising star in the division. Nevertheless, I would love to see Marquez and Pacquiao do it again.

[~J~]

Marquez basically said that he was very happy with the preparation and it showed in the ring but was disillusioned by the decision of the judges. he clearly thought he had won and that Pacquiao and everyone knows it but thought Manny would never admit it and that these are the type of decisions that stifle boxing careers.

I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch but it's gonna take nothing short of a KO for Marquez to win and that probably ain't gonna happen. I'm not sure Marquez wants to put in that much hard training again knowing the politics he's up against so a rematch would weight on that and other personal matters.

[oso1]

Besides, if you look at each of their faces post-fight it's obvious who lost.

Please don't be so naive. Yes I'm aware of something called the body shot and scoring, and appearance isn't the only factor in who won a fight.

You say one thing, then call me naive. Then you say something different?

[oso1]

Have you guys heard the excuses coming from Pac's camp and fans?
Manny had leg cramps. Roach gave a post fight interview and confirmed this.
Manny was overtrained.
Manny was hit by a car door.
Maquez kept stepping on Mannys feet/toes, so that Manny could not move out of the way.
I forgot between which rounds, but Marquez was drinking some type of colored liquid.
Marquez is on some type of steroid, performance, enhancement drug.
Marquez was running away from pac all night.
Marquez is not a true Mexican warrior.

Before the fight, Freddie Roach said, this the best training camp they had.

[Quepolo3]

Have you guys heard the excuses coming from Pac's camp and fans?
Manny had leg cramps. Roach gave a post fight interview and confirmed this.
Manny was overtrained.
Manny was hit by a car door.
Maquez kept stepping on Mannys feet/toes, so that Manny could not move out of the way.
I forgot between which rounds, but Marquez was drinking some type of colored liquid.
Marquez is on some type of steroid, performance, enhancement drug.
Marquez was running away from pac all night.
Marquez is not a true Mexican warrior.

Before the fight, Freddie Roach said, this the best training camp they had.

@Oso!- They're trying to come up with anything now. You're exactly right that Roach said this was one of the best training camps they had. I believe that was on the hbo series Marquez/ pacquio 24/7 or something like that. I heard today that he was having marital problems and that his mind wasn't on the fight. The speculation is that he had a child by another woman and his old lady found out. I say stop coming up with all of these excuses, give Marquez his credit for coming ready and just do it again. It was a good fight so I'm sure he can get another nice pay day.

[~J~]

Oso and Que,

That's exactly what Marquez was saying about Pacquiao in a Spanish TV interview. the guy would never be man enough to admit he was beat.

Here's one of the good short honest interviews on Marquez's post fight thoughts;

[Quepolo3]

Oso and Que,

That's exactly what Marquez was saying about Pacquiao in a Spanish TV interview. the guy would never be man enough to admit he was beat.

Here's one of the good short honest interviews on Marquez's post fight thoughts;

@ Big J- Good Post mane, you could tell he was pissed, and rightfully so. I hate when the boxing establishment influences the results of the fights, when trying to create a superfight. It backfired this time. So much time, training and sacrafice goes into preparing for a fight, and to rob that man like that, isn't right. I'll say this, I know he got a lot of respect from me and I'm sure other fans for his performance, and manny should whatever he needs to do to get another fight with him, cause he's a tad bit tarnished by this win, and can't be considered the pound for pound best until he shows that he can beat Marquez. This is the second questionable victory he's had against Marquez.

[mvwi1]

@ Big J- Good Post mane, you could tell he was pissed, and rightfully so. I hate when the boxing establishment influences the results of the fights, when trying to create a superfight. It backfired this time. So much time, training and sacrafice goes into preparing for a fight, and to rob that man like that, isn't right. I'll say this, I know he got a lot of respect from me and I'm sure other fans for his performance, and manny should whatever he needs to do to get another fight with him, cause he's a tad bit tarnished by this win, and can't be considered the pound for pound best until he shows that he can beat Marquez. This is the second questionable victory he's had against Marquez.

Is that right?

[~J~]

Is that right?

I'm assuming you're in disagreement but if you haven't seen it here is II highlights and III in HD for you. you tell us or maybe you see it different which is okay.

[mvwi1]

Is that right?

I'm assuming you're in disagreement but if you haven't seen it here is II highlights and III in HD for you. you tell us or maybe you see it different which is okay.

Good looks on the videos! As for the bolded, it wasn't that I disagreed but rather I didn't know as I don't really follow boxing tough.

[MCD]

You say one thing, then call me naive. Then you say something different?

Read what I wrote man instead of taking things out of context, I said I was talking about THIS fight. In THIS fight marquez cut up Pacquiao bad on TOP of scoring more points. I responded to your sarcasm by saying just because a fighter is cut up doesn't mean he lost, because some cut easily.

@MCD- Why do you hate Mayweather so much mane, he's a great fighter. The thing that stands out to me, was when Mayweather fought Marquez he seemed much bigger than Marquez and throughout the fight he was able to push Marquez around more than he typically does in a fight. I know that when the fight happens, Mayweather and Pacquio are going to be in incredible shape. Also I thought that Marquez pulled an upset against Pacquio and was cheated. Reminded me of the Winky Wright vs. Fernando Vargas fight when they were young fighters. Winky clearly out jabbed and countered vargas but vargas was given the decision because he was the rising star in the division. Nevertheless, I would love to see Marquez and Pacquiao do it again.

I just hate his fighting style and how his promoters set up his biggest fights against has-beens. And now Sergio Martinez fights like that, arms low, run, clinch, counter punch, run, clinch. Honestly they should start docking points for excessive clinching. I respect Mayweather as an athlete he didn't go undefeated by mistake, the guy works like crazy in camp and he's one of the fastest fighters out there, but for entertainment value he's at the bottom of my list.

But I see what you're saying about Wright and Vargas, it's all about protecting the upcoming "prodigy" and maximizing his market value. That's why Marquez needed to have a CONVINCING victory against Pacquiao but he couldn't quite do it. He started gassin out around RD 9 and got a little wild.

[~J~]

Before the fight, Freddie Roach said, this the best training camp they had.

I'm losing respect for Roach for flat out lying with nothing but copouts.

I just hate his fighting style and how his promoters set up his biggest fights against has-beens.

On the flipside you could definitely say the same about Manny's camp as they have been very calculated on when to pick their fights. most of the bigger named fighters have been busted up by someone else prior to the square off or at the tale end of their careers.

But I see what you're saying about Wright and Vargas, it's all about protecting the upcoming "prodigy" and maximizing his market value. That's why Marquez needed to have a CONVINCING victory against Pacquiao but he couldn't quite do it. He started gassin out around RD 9 and got a little wild.

This is true but Manny's market value is just too high for Marquez to touch him by nothing less then a KO. the promoter, odds makers and high-rollers who govern the cash flow just won't let the boxing skills speak for themselves.

[oso1]

@J, I agree 100% with your response to MCD's last comment.

Honestly, both are guilty of cherrypicking. I would have loved to have seen Mayweather fought Vernon Forrest, Cotto, and Margarito.

Pac & Roach on the other hand wait til they have all the advantages. They fight boxers who are coming off KO loses, catch weights, etc. etc. Theres numerous videos were Roach gives excuses why he won't, then why he will fight a fighter. Shane Mosley at one time was too good for Manny. Then when Mosley looks bad against Mora & Mayweather, its perfect timing for Pac to fight Shane.
At one time, Marg was to big and strong but after the war he had with Cotto, the KO loss he suffered from Mosley, also being suspened from boxing for a year. Roach knew this was the perfect timing. Forgot to mention, Marg had to fight Pac at a catch weight. With De La Hoya, Roach knew he couldn't pull the trigger anymore. Also, De La Hoya had to make 147lbs, a weight he hadn't fought at in years. Just before 06:08 of the video, Roach says they had a great training camp. But listen carefully to Roach after 6:08

[oso1]

Just like to add, James Smith thought Juan Manuel Marquez won his bout against Manny Pacquiao.

[oso1]

More excuses coming form the Pacquioa camp, but now the blame is pointed towards trainer, Freddie Roach.

http://www.examiner.com/boxing-in-long- ... -of-boxing

BECOME AN EXAMINER
Why Roach not passing even after 7 years at Marquez's Science School of Boxing

EXCLUSIVE INSIDE EDITION with HOT POTATO via HOLLYWOOD, California - World Superstar Manny Pacquiao was perhaps the loneliest figure from round 4 through 12 when he fought the braveheart son of the Aztecs, Juan Manuel Marquez, in their trilogy at the MGM Grand Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada last November 12.

"That's true: Manny Pacquiao did it all by himself after round three," says one of the key figures (number 1) of Team Pacquiao who consented to be interviewed on condition of anonymity. "He was dealing with a trainer who may have less coherence of his thinking."

"When would you know that Roach is in the state of senility, being a victim of Parkinson's disease?" He points out Pacquiao's trainer Freddie Roach's known Parkinson's disease (Wikipedia).

"That's why Manny (Pacquiao) has become a bit confused, too, and was doing all by himself in solving Marquez's puzzle after round three because I think Freddie (Roach) himself even had no idea on how to deal with Marquez ," says another key figure (number 2) of Team Pacquiao who also consented to be interviewed on condition of anonymity.

"I wonder if Roach's Parkinson's disease and the medications he takes have something to do with his lapses during brainstorming moments," adds he who claims he had watched many closed-door sessions of Pacquiao's training and has observed Roach's tremendous decline in critical thinking.

"It's obvious he's being affected by the infirmity of Parkinson's disease. You see him, you see the symptoms. His health is fast-declining. And it's affecting Manny (Pacquiao) who relies on his analysis."

According to the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, "Parkinson's disease is a degenerative disorder of the central nervous system in which in later stage cognitive and behavioural problems may arise, with dementia commonly occurring in the advanced stages of the disease."

"It's going to be the most difficult decision for Manny (Pacquiao)," says the third source from Team Pacquiao noting further "Roach should now retire from Pacquiao's corner."

"If that's the case, Roach should not be training Manny (Pacquiao) anymore," he asserts thinking "it's too dangerous for any boxer to rely on someone who is no longer the same during periods when the medications he's taking are low in therapeutic range or it could be that Roach may have been unknowingly suffering from unknown side effects."

"I have observed on many ocassions that Roach is not thinking right and, sometimes, he's very hot tempered."

"I believe it's really Manny (Pacquiao) who made Roach become a great trainer, not the other way around. Not even about the chemistry of Manny (Pacquiao) and Roach. I also think Roach's health is deteriorating pretty fast and his critical thinking skills are no longer the same. It's always Manny (Pacquiao) who's finally trying to solve the puzzle inside the ring."

"Roach even confessed after the fight that he had no idea on how to intercept Marquez's fighting style. And forget about the handspeed and lateral movements that Manny (Pacquiao) has. What's bad is that Roach has really not developed something new to defeat Marquez. He's just lucky Manny (Pacquiao) is naturally gifted of power and speed and an extremely hardworking fighter."

Nonetheless, he says: "Pacquiao has the speed, power and natural intelligence but these are not enough . Roach being a trainer has to tap these raw materials and make something better out of them, that's needed to overwhelm Marquez's effective counter-punching ability. Roach has not really developed technically sound target plans A, B and C over the years to defeat Marquez. Manny (Pacquiao) has become so predictable with good counter-punchers."

"Now, who is really to blame?"

Can we really blame Pacquiao of his failure to give a clear break on his last fight with Marquez despite his earnestness in trying his best in that ring of madness?

"Roach spending seven years at 'Marquez's science school of boxing' and still not able to solve the puzzle?"

Pacquiao first fought Marquez in 2004. The board of judges scored the same bout as draw. Then another encounter between the same fighters in 2008, which ended with a controvertial split decision in favor of Pacquiao. And then followed their trilogy last November 12 from which Pacquiao won a controvertial majority decision.

If Pacquiao's era were written on the Aztecs' diary in consonance with the Mayan calendar, then its demise may have been so prematurely imminent even before the end of 2012. The Mayans of ancient days predicted the end of the world in 2012. And, for Pacquiao, he has just entered the beginning of the period of his final crisis.

And, "this, essentially in part, is all about whether Pacquiao needs a new trainer for his last few fights in the ring." He decries.

"But, we must give him (Roach) the honor for all his hardwork and dedication to Manny's (Pacquiao) boxing career."

Stay tuned for more!

[MCD]

@J, I agree 100% with your response to MCD's last comment.

Honestly, both are guilty of cherrypicking. I would have loved to have seen Mayweather fought Vernon Forrest, Cotto, and Margarito.

Pac & Roach on the other hand wait til they have all the advantages. They fight boxers who are coming off KO loses, catch weights, etc. etc. Theres numerous videos were Roach gives excuses why he won't, then why he will fight a fighter. Shane Mosley at one time was too good for Manny. Then when Mosley looks bad against Mora & Mayweather, its perfect timing for Pac to fight Shane.
At one time, Marg was to big and strong but after the war he had with Cotto, the KO loss he suffered from Mosley, also being suspened from boxing for a year. Roach knew this was the perfect timing. Forgot to mention, Marg had to fight Pac at a catch weight. With De La Hoya, Roach knew he couldn't pull the trigger anymore. Also, De La Hoya had to make 147lbs, a weight he hadn't fought at in years.

Yeah but how many of Manny's "cherrypicked" fights were hyped up as the next obvious matchup? I personally can't remember, but I do know that the list of fighters Pacquiao's gone up against far outclass Mayweather's list of victims. Pacquiao has fought arguably the best mexican fighters in their prime MULTIPLE times: Morales, Barrera, and of course JMM.

They both had pointless victories over De La Hoya past his prime, difference being Mayweather won the WBC title in '07, and pacquiao's win in '08 was non-title. The problem is Mayweather has grown an ignorant fanboy following because of his record. His fighting style is not favored by many people and he's as opposed to Manny who according to you, waits until his opponents have been KO'd or fights at catch-weight, Floyd flat out ducks them completely.

And before Pacquiao v JMM 3, everyone thought JMM was washed up, especially before his fight with Floyd. In my opinion, Mosley is the only recent opponent that had a chance at Floyd, but he couldn't deal with the counter and didn't use any of his speed.