Dennis Bernstien of Flashpoints on Pacifica Radio interviews Stanley Tookie Williams who is currently at San Quentin Prison awaiting the Governor's Decision.
December 9, 2005, Friday
Dennis Bernstein: Today on another special Friday
edition of Flashpoints! we continue our collaboration with New College
of California, in the heart of San Francisco's Mission District.
(applause)
Yes, that's the audience! Today we are expecting a call
from Stanley "Tookie" Williams on Death Row in San Quentin, waiting for
the Governor's decision as to whether he will live or he will die.
Also the U.S. military prepares to blow a billion bucks on a national
recruitment campaign while Katrina survivors go homeless by the
thousands. We'll take a look at "new song movement" and also hear
headlines from the region, and Flashpoints! in Espanol. I'm Dennis
Bernstein, with co-hosts Francisco Hererra, Miguel Guerrero and Nora
Barrows Friedman. All this straight ahead on Flashpoints! -- stay
tuned!
(music)
Dennis: Well, it is good to see you again my good brother.
Franciso
Hererra, you are back from spending some time in Berkeley wth
Martin Sheen, last we saw you, and Father Roy Bourgeois was there
speaking, and you were playing.
Francisco: Yeah, yeah. That was a wonderful little sharing of
information, thoughts, experience. Basically Martin Sheen was
interviewing Father Roy Bourgeois about the experience of creating a
movement that challenges The School of the Americas, The
School of the
Assassins as we call it. And the experience also of what it means
to go
to jail for justice and how that changes you. It was a really good
reflection actually between both of these guys who are legendary at
this time-- Martin Sheen for his activism on several issues, no? And
Father Roy Bourgeois for the work he's done to help to close The
School
of the Assassins over in Georgia.
Dennis: Well everybody is talking about the death penalty, about
criminal juistice, about the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams. Of
course we know that that is only a symbol of a criminal injustice
system, a massive expanding slave labor network.
Francisco: Yeah, yeah. When the criminals run the justice
system we're
all done for, unless we organize. And we're seeing now that the
corporations are the bad neighbors, the bad citizens that are running
our justice system, because they're producing hundreds of thousands if
not millions of dollars monthly from these prisons where people are
imprisoned and become workers to create everything from furniture to
selling airline tickets. All of it is pretty amazing.
Dennis: You know I'm thinking about -- they want to kill
Stanley
"Tookie" Williams, who has really devoted the last part of his life on
Death Row working against violence, while we now hear about a billion
bucks to recruit kids to go join I guess the biggest most powerful gang
in the world, and go drop white phosphorus on people fleeing their
villages in Iraq.
Francisco: Oh yeah, the U.S. military. And at the same time
people here
in the United States abandoned, as we're gonna hear later as we talk
with Lisa-- but I think we have Tookie on the phone...
Dennis: We have Stanley "Tookie" Williams on the line, and as
people
should understand, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has not yet given a
clue as to his decision regarding clemency for "Tookie" Williams, now
slotted to be murdered by the State on Tuesday -- 4 days from now -- if
in fact the Governor doesn't see the light. As most of you know,
Williams is both the co-founder of the Crips and a multiple nominee for
both the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in Literature. His
anti-violence work since being placed on Death Row is world-renowned.
The cries to spare his life echo from one side of this globe to the
other. Stanley "Tookie" Williams, welcome to Flashpoints!
Tookie: Thank you, Dennis. I'm humbled by it all, believe me.
Dennis: Well we are really delighted to be able to speak with you
today
on the Flashpoints! show. And one of the words that is now being
identified more and more with your name is that of redemption.
You know
there's a Hollywood film produced about your life called Redemption.
Tell us about what redemption means to you, and what you think are the
most significant aspects of the work you have taken on that demonstrate
that aspect, that word "redemption".
Tookie: Well first and foremost, my interpretation of
redemption
differs from the theological or the academic rendition. I believe that
being redeemed transcends atonement, or being liberated from my sins.
And also contrarywise to popular misconception, redemption isn't
exclusive to saints, or prophets, or the elitists or the sanctimonious.
To me, redemption is tailor-made for the wretched. And I was once
wretched. It also symbolizes the end of a bad beginning and a new
start. So in essence, I can say that my redemption has actually
literally resurrected me from a spiritual and mental death. And I can
also say that for me, redemption is not a finality -- there is no
plateau. It's a continuous process, day to day. And it's my endeavor,
my privilege and my calling.
Dennis: Why don't you tell us about a typical day in the life of
Stanley "Tookie" Williams? What do you do in the morning? What's your
cell like? Do you have a little library there on Death Row?
Tookie: Well at this particular juncture I have nothing in here but
a
bible and a dictionary, and all of my property is next door to me. And
if I need something, the guard who is sitting in front of the cell will
go in there and get it for me. So I'm continuously watched, 24-7. Even
when I go to the shower, there are 3 guards right there, observing
every move that I make. When I'm going to visit, I'm in waist chains
shackled around my wrists, and they put leg irons around my ankles, so
I can't move. And I'm bolted -- literally bolted and shackled to the
chair, so I can't get up. That's how my visits have been. And away
from everybody -- they're in the PANELLING room. And they tell
me this
is the policy, but of course with me, there's always been new policies.
In a sense they whimsically come up with any type of policy that they
deem fit at the moment. That's what it appears to be to me, because
there's no "risk" policy -- I've yet to see any of it.
Dennis: Stanley "Tookie" Williams, tell us about some of the work
--
some of the experiences that you have had working with young people
that have transformed and helped to transform you.
Tookie: Well in essence, working with youth for me is like
experiencing
an epiphany of VATORI each day-- each day that I talk with
them, each
day that I'm able to write a book, each day that I'm able to
communicate my message to them. It's just a wonderful feeling, and I'm
convinced that my message is working. I'm convinced by virtue of the
emails that I receive at my web site. We're talking ten's of thousands
of emails, from youth all over this country and throughout the world.
Dennis: Give us your sense of the fight that we're facing here.
Obviously if Governor Schwarzenegger does not give you clemency your
life will end this week, but this isn't only about your life, is it?
It's about a justice system that thrives on the violence of poverty,
isn't it?
Tookie: Absolutely correct. And let me tell you that racialism is
the
most explosive and down-played entity in America. The fact of the
matter is, is that there are blacks in this nation -- we're talking 6%
of the nation's population, but 42% of the nation's death row
prisoners. We're talking about black defendants who are sentenced to
death at 40% more than other defendants accused of similar crimes,
We're talking about black males representing 4% of this state's
population, but 36% are the state death row population. I recall
reading somewhere that there are four factors germaine to the criminal
justice system that encompass bias against black men: we're talking
about law enforcement bias, we're talking about jury bias, we're
talking about prosecutorial bias -- 99% of the nation's prosecutors in
death penalty cases are white -- and we're talking about judge bias.
Those are the truisms in this life.
Dennis: How does one who starts as you did -- in a very difficult
setting -- in a poor setting -- takes on violence as a way of life --
how does one get from there to writing childrens' books that stand
against violence? What is the watershed moment-- what is the thing that
happens inside the soul, and the consciousness that leads to this
transformation?
Tookie: First and foremost, we're talking about discipline.
Everything
that I've been able to accomplish started from the terra firma of
faith. And discipline. I believed that I could change. The thing was
that I realized that great men such as Martin Luther King, but
specifically Malcom X and George SACKS and other individuals who
made a
transformation from a thug to a thinking black man -- I saw, I
believed, that because they were able to accomplish these things -- and
they accomplished it through discipline and education -- and they had
attributes of other constructive means -- but the discipline that they
acquired, and the faith that they had -- I knew that it was of earthly
accessibility. Therefore I knew for a fact that I could do it: anytime
they could, I could. So I was able to do it, because I wanted it, and
because my discipline allowed me to do it.
Dennis: You're listening to Flashpoints! on Pacifica radio, my name
is
Dennios Bernstein. We are broadcasting from New College of California,
we are speaking to Stanley "Tookie" Williams, he is talking to us from
Death Row. He is a multiple nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, for the
Nobel Prize in Literature, he has won many, many awards for his work.
And we are awaiting a decision by the Governor of California on whether
this man will live or die.
Stanley "Tookie" Williams, about 5 years ago I
interviewed a young man named Douglas Christopher Thomas, who was sent
to death for a murder that he was convicted of, which he carried out
when he was 15 or 16. Before committing this murder he actually tried
to take his own life. He came from a very troubled home. In this
interview that I did with him in the days before his death, I asked
him: "If you had your sentence changed, if you were free tomorrow, what
would you do - how would you change your life?" And he said something
that was very troubling and touching. He said "Well, I think maybe I
would go out and join the military, and that way pay my debt to
society, and clean up my life." And I'm thinking: here is a young man
facing the death sentence for supposedly killing somebody, and now if
he's freed from this death sentence, he will go into the military and
train and learn how to kill and die. What's your reaction to this
unbelievable contradiction of money for soldiers and wars -- well you
know where I'm going.
Tookie: Yes. Well the fact of the matter is, is that you have to
realize that blacks in general -- we have a hope that is unbelievable.
And this hope has been passed down to generations, beginning in slavery
and even pre-slavery. Our ancestors had to have this hope and this
intransigent staying power -- this ability to not give up, to believe
that things will get better, and that we can change. And what I have
and what I'm exhibiting -- not only to you, but to the world -- is not
a phenomenon. There are other individuals on Death Row who have this
same initiative, who have this same discipline, this same respect for
one's self, the same resolution to rise above the wretched conditons
that they live under. These individuals have continued to show that
they have the redemptive transition...
(interruption: "You have 120 seconds left on this call").
... to overcome. They are intelligent, they are racist readers,
they
are disciplined and they have transformed their lives, and started to
reach out to others. And I'm proud of them as they are of me. And the
fact of the matter is, that young man that you spoke of -- he had
the hope and the initiative and the foresight to want to do something
with his life. The same is applicable to me, and these individuals that
I spoke of back there. There's plenty of them who are sincere about
doing well. But see these things never filter out to society.
Dennis: You know it is very interesting -- the words that he used
to
talk about what he needed or what he was missing. He said well, why
would he do this? And he - I'm just trying to find that on this page
now...
(interruption: "You have 60 seconds left on this call")
You know what -- Stanley "Tookie" Williams, is it possible for you to
give us a call back?
Tookie: Yes I will. I'll hang up now and call back.
Dennis: We look forward to speaking with you again. We look
forward to
speaking with Stanley "Tookie" Williams. I am Dennis Bernstein, and I
am with my good friend and co-host Francisco Herrera. He's going to
make some music as we re-connect with Stanley "Tookie" Williams. You're
listening to Flashpoints! on Pacifica Radio, broadcasting live from
The Mission District, New College of California.
(music interlude: Francisco performs a rendition of Bob Marley's
Redemption Song in English and Espanol)
Dennis: Francisco Herrera. We're coming to you live from New
College of
California, and on the line again with us from Death Row is Stanley
"Tookie" Williams. We appreciate you coming back and speaking with us
on Free Speech Pacifica Radio, where the corporations don't call the
shots.
Tookie: (laughs) Yeah.
Dennis: So what do you think of Pacifica Radio? Do you get it in
San
Quentin?
Tookie: Excellent. I consider it to be the best.
Dennis: Well listen, could you tell us if you were standing in
front of
the Governor...
(interuption: this call will be recorded and monitored...)
Dennis: That's fine with us. You already got our number,
wherever you
are-- you got our number!
(laughter)
All right, we're getting some feedback here. Stanley "Tookie" Williams,
are you with us?
Tookie: Yes I am.
Dennis: Great. What would you say to the Governor: what do you
want him
to know about where you want to go with your life, and the kind of work
that you see ahead?
Tookie: Well, first and foremost, dare I say that I don't want
to live
just for the sake of living. I don't believe in simply occupying
space... living in inertia just because I have a pulse. My desire is to
continue to be an active part of the solution. More importantly, I
bring more to the table than my physicality. I bring forth credible
change through my empathetic words, my books, my web site, my
conference calls and viable solutions. Like the Governor, I too relied
on my indominatable determination to make the seemingly impossible
possible, and I need not tell him about the necessary discipline it
requires to achieve that. And if I'm afforded a clemency or an
indefinite
stay, I'll continue to proliferate my positive message to all who will
listen. And not only that, still my preference is to do more, though.
And just recently I met with the President and CEO of the NAACP, Bruce
Gordon. And what emanated from our meeting was a partnership to create
a Violence Prevention Program for at-risk youth throughout
the United States. And each NAACP chapter will provide me with the
necessary support, to strive to help end or reverse this cycle of
violence and madness.
Dennis: Tell us about some of the other people who have been coming
to
spend time with you, and perhaps what you're learning in this process.
Tell us about what your life has been like in terms of these visits:
who's been coming to see you?
Tookie: Well there's been quite a few people who've been coming to
see
me. As I stated earlier, Bruce Gordon, the President and CEO of the
NAACP. I've had the opportunity to finally meet Len Woodfield, who is
an ardent supporter. And just recently I had the opportunity to once
again meet with Jamie Foxx. And the day prior to seeing him, I met with
Brother Snoop Dogg -- he had the opportunity to finally get in here.
And to me, it was all awe-inspiring. It was just a wonderful
brotherhood and sisterhood.
Dennis: One of the things that I always find extraordinary in terms
of
situations such as yourself, where somebody ends up on Death Row, and
if you don't get the help -- if the outside world doesn't hear you're
in trouble, but sometimes there's somebody, such as in your case,
Barbara
Becnel, who has given so much.
Tookie: Yes.
Dennis: And who has committed so much as a journalist, as an
investigator, as a friend, as an editor. Can you talk a little bit
about how crucial, how important it is to have outside support on the
one hand, and how the prison system works to cut you off from it?
Tookie: Well the thing is, is that I never feared or adhered to the
destructive devices of the prison. As you know, this specific prison,
and the entire CDC, have never come forth to exacerbate or to incur
individual executions. They never came out and spoke out against an
individual who was scheduled for execution. But they found it
necessary to come out against me. And I say to you, and I say to your
audience, that anything that these people say to you, take with a
grain of salt and sand, because I've learned that these people can be
as nefarious as any criminal in here or in society. They are corrupt,
they have proven it, they have shown it, and I've experienced it. And
I will continue to fight these people with every breath that I have. I
do not fear them. I do not fear that their mechanism of death. I am a
man of peace, and that's what I live by. But enough about these
nefarious people. Let's talk about something that's more angelic -- of
Miss Barbara Becnel. I have lauded her by creating a chapter in my book
Blue Rage, Black Redemption. The title for her is Human Angel,
and she
epitomizes that. She is the most remarkable woman that I have ever
known, and will ever have the privilege of meeting. She is a Godsend
woman -- she is brilliant, she is magnanimous, she is intransigent in
her endeavors, she is like a human pittbull: she will not stop. I've
never met a woman like her in my life. And I'm proud of her, I'm proud
to know her, and I have love for her because she is a magnificent
woman, and she deserves all the credit in the world.
Dennis: Well, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, we're about to say
goodbye,
but my co-host Francisco Herrera wanted to ask you a quick question or
two, so let me turn the mic over to him.
Francisco: Hello Stanley, this is Francisco Herrera here, of
Flashpoints!
Tookie: Hello, how are you?
Francisco: All right brother, thank you. Stan, you have left us
some
incredible tools by which we can work. One of them has been the "peace
protocol"...
Tookie: Now wait a minute -- you're speaking as if I'm already
gone, my
brother! Let's not be so hasty!
Francisco: Oh, no, no! Just in the sense of... I'm talking about
work
you've already done...
Tookie: No, but you say I've "left you". That's...
Francisco: No, no, no no! Thank you for correcting me.
Tookie: Okay, no problem.
Francisco: You created a very important tool for us to use, which
is
the "peace protocol".
Tookie: Yes.
Francisco: And I just want to ask you to tell us a little bit of
the
essence of how you created that, and how you've seen it work with the
young people-- the"peace protocol". And thank you for your correction.
Tookie: (laughs) Oh, no problem-- a minor Freudian slip, no
problem.
The thing is that I found it necessary to create a "peace protocol"
because there was nothing out there. And the majority of individuals
that were involved in gangs, or former gang members, they always
stressed the fact that there was nothing out there that would inculcate
them as to how to create a truth -- one that was viable, one that
would
work, one that was tangible. I figured that if I created one -- one
that was based on a step-by-step plan that would help an individual
become integrated right back into society. Because as you and I both
are aware, we know that the majority of individuals in prison, the
majority of individuals that are disenfranchised, the majority of
individuals who are consdered to be illiterate, are also considered to
be pariahs in society -- a non-person. Therefore, there has to be not
only a truth, because of the simple fact that a truth alone is not
going to work. We've seen it fail in all these other countries who are
having wars against one another, like the Palestinians and the
Israelis. The reason why these peace protocols are failing, is because
they don't have a sincere social agenda: one that is willing to
initiate compromise, charity, and striving to have a peace that is
accessible.
And the same is applicable here. That is why I created it,
because I feel that it can work. And case in point: it's being used in
New Jersey as we speak, and it's successful. And it's being used in
other places as well. So this isn't a gimmick, this isn't a sound bite
-- this is actually working because it's a step-by-step,
block-by-block initiative. And there's nothing esoteric about it. It's
up front, and it shows and teaches an individual that when you
address any type of initiative for peace, you come from a position of
strength. In other words you have everything that you possibly need at
hand to address the ills of society. You can't come by half-step: you
have to address these issues with everything that you need. As I stated
in one particular chapter, I talked about making sure that you have all
the community leaders involved -- the politicians, the store owners,
especially the individuals who are involved in amends. Somebody
somewhere knows an individual in those specific gangs. Therefore these
are the individuals that you contact. You don't have to know them
personally, but when you come to them, you must come to them with a
plan that is accessible, you must come to them with a plan that
includes them. And the last thing you want to do is...
(interruption: "You have 120 seconds left on this call")
... make them feel that they're alienated from the problem, because
they are part of the problem. Therefore you must imbibe them into - you
must pull them into -- this "peace protocol", and make them a part, ask
them questions. Don't sit there and try to inculcate them on a life
that you absolutely know nothing about. Ask them what they need, and if
it's practical, then you address it. But if it's not, then you try your
best to make them understand that hey -- what you're saying is not
logical, it's not gonna work. Here's what we should do.
Dennis: Well, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, we are delighted that you
could join us tonight. We are looking forward to a follow-up interview
next Wednesday...
Tookie: Now see, that is a wonderful way to look at it. That's the
way
I look at it!
(applause)
Dennis: So we here in the room in Pacifica Radio, in this
country...
(interruption: "You have 60 seconds left on this call")
... stand with you against the death penalty, against the criminal
injustice system, against the true, true violence of poverty that
really stands behind all of this. Thank you, we'll talk to you
Wednesday.
(applause)
Tookie: Yes. And Brother Dennis, God bless all of you. And God
bless
all of the individuals on Death Row, and you know who I'm talking
about. So take care, Hermani. And Speer.
Dennis: All right. May all be well. You're listening to
Flashpoints! on
Pacifica Radio. We're here at New College of California. That was
Stanley "Tookie" Williams. We will talk to him, next week.
Some Gangs Get Sued 